Fritz O’Connor, former VP of Marketing at Ironman 4×4 America, exemplifies this approach. With over two decades of experience spanning manufacturing, sales, and marketing leadership, Fritz has developed a methodology for building high-performing organizations that deliver results consistently, even in challenging circumstances.

A marketing leader built for manufacturing

Fritz’s career journey reads like a masterclass in understanding customers across different industries. Starting in the printing and paper industry, he cut his teeth in structured sales training programs that taught him the fundamentals of professional sales and business operations.

“I’ve spent my entire career in sales and marketing roles. Almost exclusively in the manufacturing sector for companies that make stuff,” Fritz explains. This foundation in manufacturing would prove invaluable throughout his career, giving him deep insight into the complexity of bringing physical products to market.

His two-decade tenure at GE further refined his skills across diverse business environments. “We always used to say we can work in any industry, anywhere in the world, and still get paid by the same company,” he recalls. This experience working across plastics, appliances, and GE Corporate gave him a unique perspective on how great companies operate at scale.

But it was during his time at GE Corporate that Fritz discovered what would become his career-defining framework: differential value proposition (DVP). Working in a marketing consulting role with virtually every business in GE’s global portfolio, he helped launch this customer-centric approach to messaging and positioning throughout the organization.

This systematic approach to understanding and serving customers became foundational to Fritz’s ongoing success.

Implementing systems and frameworks that take teams from features to solutions

Originally coined by the founder of Valkre Solutions, Jerry Alderman, the DVP framework transforms how companies think about customer messaging and competitive positioning. Fritz became a master at implementing this methodology across diverse organizations.

“What are you offering? Be it a product or service that is better than the customer’s next best alternative,” Fritz explains. This might seem simple, but the implications are profound. Rather than competing on features or price, DVP focuses on solving customer problems in ways that competitors simply cannot match.

The challenge, as Fritz learned during his GE implementation, is that DVP represents a fundamental shift in thinking. "Every business, product, or service has a value proposition, but not every value proposition is differential. So many companies have the same value proposition. The white space is that differential part."

"It's about switching thinking from a feature to a benefit. For example, a blue appliance is not a differential value proposition. It's a feature."

Fritz teaches teams to make this shift by leading with problems and solutions.

"It's how it makes the consumer or customer's life better, how it solves that problem. You have to identify what the problem is. You have to articulate how you can fix that problem in a different way, better than anybody else."

This shift from features to solutions requires teams to understand their customers' actual problems, not just their stated needs.

For leaders, this translates directly into more effective product messaging, clearer value propositions, and ultimately, higher conversion rates.

Overcoming the "this is how we've always done it" challenge

One of Fritz's biggest career wins (and ongoing challenges) centers around implementing the Differential Value Proposition (DVP) methodology across organizations. The implementation at GE became both a success story and a learning experience in change management.

"As you can imagine, anytime you try and launch a new process in a company the size of GE, you can be met with resistance. Especially when you're coming out of corporate."

This resistance taught Fritz a crucial lesson about implementing change: "I don't view that as a challenge or a stumbling block, but as a fantastic and wonderful opportunity because when you flip those people, they become your biggest proponents."

His approach centers on listening first, then demonstrating value in the stakeholder's own language. "It's a listening journey. You've gotta understand what the challenges are that of the people with whom you're working, whether it's an external customer or an internal customer."

"Proactively listen and walk in the shoes of the people I'm working with. When I'm trying to introduce something as significant as DVP or other business tools."

This listening approach helps identify the real challenges and resistance points, making it possible to address them effectively.

The foundation: accountability, responsibility, and challenge

But having the right frameworks isn't enough. Fritz learned that execution depends on creating the right team culture. He is quick to credit his teams as the backbone of his successful projects, and one of the ways he supports them is with clear organizational principles.

"I have a few underlying business principles that I've gained along the way that are the foundational threads for me," Fritz explains. "One is, any team I work with or works for me, my job is to make them as successful as possible."

This people-first approach manifests through three guiding principles:

• Accountability: Holding yourself and your team responsible for deliverables and outcomes
• Responsibility: Taking ownership of significant business challenges
• Challenge: Embracing difficult problems that create meaningful business impact

"The way I do that is through three guiding principles, which are accountability, responsibility, and challenge," Fritz notes. "I want to be entrusted with significant responsibility that is helping to solve a significant business challenge."

These principles translate into a simple but powerful operational mantra: deliver on time, complete with excellence.

"I know those all sound like buzzwords, but they're not meant to be. And we don't treat them as such. We treat them as very simple guiding principles to keep us focused."

Putting it all together at Ironman 4x4

When Fritz joined Ironman 4x4 America, he found the perfect opportunity to apply all of these frameworks.

Ironman 4x4 is a global company that sells off-road parts and accessories for 4x4 vehicles (lift kits, suspension parts, bumpers, etc.). They have been around since the 1950s, but were new to the United States, so Fritz had the opportunity to find new ways to market their complex "fitment" products, or parts that must work with specific vehicle makes and models. This complexity creates both technical and marketing challenges that Fritz's team had to solve systematically.

His sales background gave him an invaluable perspective on marketing effectiveness. "If you spend any time in sales, that means you're around customers, whether those are B2B or B2C customers. And you learn what's important to them."

This customer proximity taught him the critical principle of "show me, don't tell me." Rather than relying on feature lists or industry awards, effective marketing demonstrates value through customer experiences and outcomes.

"We always, in both sales and marketing, it's easy to get into the trap of just talking, talking, talking, describing stuff, talking about features and benefits. Talking about the industry's best. Nobody cares about your industry. They care about how your product or service is going to impact them."

The key to marketing complex products, Fritz knew, is understanding how customers think about their problems. Rather than leading with technical specifications, the focus should be on the customer's end goal and the emotional drivers behind their purchase decisions.

Fritz emphasizes the importance of demonstrating value rather than just describing it: "Really, visual storytelling, video storytelling, placing the customer in the scene so they understand your value. That ability comes from firsthand experience of seeing that happen in the sales arena."

A data-driven website replatforming

His POV shaped everything he was involved in at Ironman 4x4 America, from new product introduction processes to website optimization. Fritz implemented structured new product integration toll gates with clear deliverables and cross-functional accountability, ensuring every product launch was executed with precision across creative, digital, and channel marketing.

His customer-centered thinking and frameworks proved essential when his team tackled a complex website migration from an outdated platform to Shopify. The project was based on their understanding that a website change was necessary to better serve their audience and increase ecommerce sales.

Working with The Good on a DXO Program, the Ironman 4x4 team executed the redesign and replatforming with data-driven methodology. Rather than relying on opinions about what the site should look like, they embraced rapid prototyping and continuous testing.

"Any decision made without data is just an opinion, right?" Fritz notes, referencing CEO Luke Schnacke's philosophy.

"We try to be very data-driven, which is why it was so important for us to work with The Good, to get that data and share it with the team managing the website replatforming so that they were making data-driven decisions on design and functionality."

They didn’t wait for a “perfect website” to figure out what customers wanted. They tested and got feedback throughout the entire process to make sure they were developing the right ideas.

"I realized we were never going to do it perfectly," Fritz recalls. The team was getting bogged down in opinions about checkout processes, product customizers, and overall site design. "We could end up using half our development budget on building something that doesn't perform."

"Ultimately, we agreed to launch and then test the heck out of it. We didn't want to overburden the development pipeline with projects that don't have a financial impact."

This represents a fundamental shift in thinking. They went from trying to build the perfect site to building a testable foundation for continuous improvement.

The beauty of working with The Good in this situation, Fritz explains, was "the rapid prototyping, the test and learn. We could very quickly get feedback and iterate and then test and learn again."

Multiplying results through partnership

Leveraging an external partnership accelerated progress beyond what internal resources could achieve alone and held the team accountable to the frameworks and goals of staying user-centered and data-driven.

"If you're not an expert, I would recommend doing a website project with a company like The Good. It wasn't a cost, it was an investment," Fritz emphasizes. "And I think that Ironman 4x4 is the beneficiary of the investment that they made with The Good as they migrated over to Shopify and learned about what customers would like."

The partnership enabled intentional, studied testing with proper dependencies and measurable results tracking.

"That whole test and learn methodology is done in a very structured, deliberate way. Making changes in a waterfall, with the proper dependencies articulated, and then tracking the measurable benefits of changes, and then tweaking accordingly from there."

This approach breeds confidence because it's entirely data-driven, removing guesswork from critical business decisions.

Lessons for marketing and sales leaders

For marketing and sales leaders looking to build similar operational excellence, Fritz's approach provides a roadmap: start with principles, understand your customers deeply, make decisions based on data, and never underestimate the power of strategic partnerships to unlock potential.

Start with principles, not tactics

Before implementing any marketing or optimization program, establish clear guiding principles. Fritz's framework of accountability, responsibility, and challenge provided a foundation that influenced every decision and created lasting organizational change.

Understand your customer's next best alternative

Move beyond feature-benefit messaging to understand what your customers would do if your solution didn't exist. This "next best alternative" thinking is the foundation of truly differential value propositions.

Convert resistance through understanding

When facing organizational resistance to change, focus on understanding stakeholder concerns rather than pushing solutions. Meet people where they are and demonstrate value in their language.

Embrace data-driven decision making

Resist the temptation to rely on opinions or best practices. Instead, create structured testing methodologies that let customer behavior guide optimization decisions.

Invest in external partnerships strategically

Recognize when external expertise can accelerate progress. The right partnerships provide capabilities and perspectives that internal teams may not possess, ultimately delivering better results faster.

Starting an optimization journey

Fritz's approach to building and scaling teams, including Ironman 4x4's US marketing operations, demonstrates how principled leadership, customer-centric thinking, and strategic partnerships can create sustainable competitive advantages.

"There's no obstacle too big that can't be overcome with data and optimization, right?" Fritz states emphatically. "The whole point of being data-driven and optimizing is to get time back and to become more efficient."

His advice for other leaders facing similar challenges?

"Get to yes. Figure out how to do it. Don't say, this is why I can't do it. Say this is how I'm going to do it. Here are things I need to do in order to do it. Then hold yourself accountable. Make it happen. Do it."

The secret, according to Fritz, lies in celebrating small wins that compound over time: "Little steps, I always like to say, celebrate the little wins. Go after the little wins because they compound on one another and then all of a sudden you're gonna look back and go, holy mackerel, I can't believe I am where I am."

The secret is consistency: "And it starts with data as your foundation and optimization as the accelerator."

For ecommerce leaders looking to build similar operational excellence, Fritz's framework provides a proven template: establish clear principles, understand customer problems deeply, make data-driven decisions, and never underestimate the power of strategic partnerships to accelerate growth.

Ready to optimize your ecommerce experience with data-driven methodology? Learn more about The Good's Digital Experience Optimization Program and discover how strategic partnerships can unlock your growth potential.

The Good helps ecommerce brands like Ironman 4x4 optimize their digital experiences through research-backed testing and strategic partnerships. Our team combines deep technical expertise with proven methodologies to deliver measurable results for growing brands.

The post Fritz O’Connor Stays User-Centered and Leads with Data During Uncertain Times appeared first on The Good.

According to McKinsey research, nearly 40% of consumers switch retailers to get better deals.

The challenge is no different from the classic showrooming problem that has plagued retailers for over a decade. Your customers discover your products, compare, and then disappear to buy from wholesalers, retailers, or resellers offering lower prices.

Because they can’t compete on price and leadership won’t budge on enforcing a MAP policy, many teams will simply throw their hands up and concede that 40% of price-sensitive shoppers will buy elsewhere.

Before you do that, I want to share an alternative POV. After working with hundreds of ecommerce brands to increase conversions, there are some tried and true strategies that will deliver in spite of MAP restrictions.

It starts with reframing the situation. Customer acquisition isn’t the problem. Customer preference is.

Instead of trying to win the price war, it’s time to focus on better customer experiences and compete in areas that can’t be replicated by the competition.

Solution 1: Make the experience worth the premium

The insight: 72% of consumers expect personalized experiences. Resellers can’t always deliver them.

While you can buy Glossier products at retailers like Ulta and Target, Glossier’s direct channels offer something those retailers can’t: a personalized skincare quiz that analyzes your skin type and concerns to curate 3-5 products specifically for your needs.

Their website shows personalized product recommendations based on your quiz results and browsing behavior, creating a tailored experience that feels custom-made.

This is the idea of selling the experience of being your customer and making it a seamless, one-of-a-kind experience to shop with you.

What this looks like in practice:

• Real-time AI personalization throughout the shopping experience
• Immersive product discovery via recommendations
• Clear articulation of your brand values and differentiators relevant to each unique user
• Brand storytelling that makes the purchase decision emotional instead of transactional

Solution 2: Create exclusivity that other sellers can’t touch

The insight: Exclusive SKUs and premium products can command 20-30% higher profit margins. While your resellers can sell your products, they can’t sell your brand or your relationship with customers.

Nike didn’t always beat resellers by matching prices. They created SNKRS app exclusives and limited colorways that resellers literally cannot obtain, contributing significantly to digital revenue and spiking DTC sales during the pandemic.

The strategy works because exclusivity creates urgency, and urgency often trumps price sensitivity.

What exclusive access looks like:

• Brand-only colorways and limited editions
• Early access windows 24-48 hours before reseller inventory
• Extended size runs available only through your channels
• Bundle combinations that resellers can’t replicate

Solution 3: Build loyalty programs that compete with discounting

The insight: Experience-based loyalty programs can make the shopping experience delightful without lowering prices.

84% of customers say they’re more likely to engage with a brand that offers a loyalty program, which is a game-changer for ecommerce companies without MAP policies.

For example, members of Sephora’s Beauty Insider program generate 80% of its total sales. While the program doesn’t guarantee products at the lowest price, it does offer exclusive access, personalized services, and community benefits that competitors cannot provide.

Loyalty programs that work:

• Tier-based structures with exclusive access benefits
• Community elements that create network effects
• Experiential rewards that resellers can’t match
• Personalized services that add genuine value

Solution 4: Optimize every conversion touchpoint

The insight: When you can’t compete on price, every visitor becomes precious. Optimizing the digital experience can offset price disadvantages.

Munchkin faced this exact challenge competing with retailers like Target and Walmart, where their products were sold. Working with The Good, they discovered that 70% of their traffic was mobile, but frustrated users were bouncing due to annoying pop-ups and poor navigation.

As David Embree from Munchkin put it, “If you’re paying to invite someone to your store, you don’t want them to walk in and immediately turn around to go somewhere else.”

By removing invasive popups, optimizing mobile navigation, and improving product findability, Munchkin decreased its bounce rate significantly and saw a lift in site-wide KPIs within six months.

What a powerful optimization strategy looks like:

• Comprehensive audit of user behavior and analytics data to identify conversion barriers
• Prioritized solutions that turn barriers into opportunities
• A/B testing and other experimentation methods to validate site improvements
• Device-specific optimization to customize the experience
• Navigation improvements to help users find specific products instead of browsing aimlessly
• Streamlined purchase paths that eliminate every source of friction
• Sophisticated abandoned cart recovery that addresses objections and provides additional value

Solution 5: Leverage tech to offer innovative shopping experiences

The insight: While resellers focus on price optimization, you can invest in technological advances that create immediate competitive advantages.

Warby Parker’s AR try-on experience through their site and mobile app allows customers to virtually test frames from home. The company’s annual report mentions that try-on features contribute to customer satisfaction, which is known to increase conversion rates.

Advanced technology requires significant investment that discount-focused resellers can’t justify for all the product types in their store. But it creates customer experiences that justify premium pricing and drive conversion improvements.

What technology differentiation looks like:

• AR try-on experiences
• Real-time personalization that updates offers based on customer activity
• Predictive analytics that anticipate customer needs/interests
• Social commerce

Solution 6: Lean on your brand story and values to connect with customers

The insight: Your resellers are selling your product, but they can’t sell your story.

Olipop transformed the crowded soda market by crafting a compelling narrative around gut health and nostalgia.

While Amazon can stock their prebiotic sodas, they can’t replicate the brand’s authentic story about making childhood favorites functional for adult wellness.

This storytelling creates emotional connections that justify premium pricing. Customers pay $2.50 for an Olipop versus $1 for a Coke because they’re buying into a healthier lifestyle narrative. They also have a subscription program that makes it easy for customers to restock every month.

Weaving the brand story into everything, from blog articles to stats on quality, helps customers build a direct relationship with your brand.

Content strategies that differentiate:

• Educational content that positions you as the industry expert
• User-generated content that creates social proof and community engagement
• Brand storytelling using elements like quality tiles to connect with customer values

Solution 7: Try product bundling to create value

The insight: Retailers may have lower prices on individual products, but you can create bundles to provide unreplicable value.

Harry’s grooming bundles products to make it easier for customers to find what they need for a smooth shave. Terms like “complete suite” and “essentials” create the perception of necessity while offering genuine convenience.

Smart product bundling makes price comparison impossible because customers can’t find identical packages elsewhere. The strategy works because bundles provide genuine convenience and a perception of value.

What strategic bundling looks like:

• Product combinations with complementary items, services, or accessories
• Value-added services like installation, setup assistance, or training included
• Exclusive package deals available only through your channel

Solution 8: Create unbeatable service experiences

The insight: Exceptional customer service can become a primary differentiator when price competition is off the table.

REI’s legendary approach exemplifies this strategy through its unmatched 100% satisfaction guarantee and return policy. Members can return any REI product at any time for any reason, with no questions asked, even if they’ve used it for years.

The policy extends beyond just returns to include their expert gear consultation services, where knowledgeable staff help customers choose the right equipment for their specific outdoor adventures, and their extensive educational programs, including classes on everything from rock climbing to bike maintenance.

Superior service creates defensible advantages because it requires investment in people and processes that discount-focused resellers can’t justify. The key is making the service itself a reason to choose you.

What service excellence looks like:

• Pre-sale consultation and personalized product selection guidance
• Extended warranties and satisfaction guarantees that competitors can’t match
• Omnichannel service consistency across online, phone, chat, and in-store
• Post-purchase support that turns customers into advocates

Understanding customer psychology and your unique users

Research shows that price is rarely the only factor in purchase decisions, even for price-sensitive customers. So, understanding the foundations of customer psychology and what matters is crucial when competing beyond price.

Some of the foundational elements of customer psychology are true no matter what you offer:

• Trust and Credibility: Customers often pay premium prices for retailers they trust. Build credibility through professional website design, clear policies, security certifications, and transparent business practices.
• Convenience and Time Savings: Many customers value convenience more than small price differences. Streamlined shopping experiences, fast shipping, and easy returns can justify MAP pricing.
• Risk Reduction: Customers often choose established retailers to reduce purchase risk. Comprehensive return policies, warranties, and a reputation for reliability can overcome price objections.

But there are other user behaviors that will be unique to your customers. Doing the research to understand what they want and need is the best way to deliver experiences that can compete when your company doesn’t have minimum advertised price policies in place.

Compete on value, not on price

MAP policy restrictions don’t have to be conversion killers. They can be conversion redirectors that allow you to compete differently.

While the wholesalers, retailers, and resellers race to the bottom on price, you can build sustainable differentiation through superior customer experience, expert service, and strategic value creation.

The ecommerce teams that thrive under MAP constraints understand a fundamental truth: customers don’t always buy from the cheapest option. They buy from the option that provides the most value. Your job is to ensure that option is always yours.

Ready to transform your MAP constraints into competitive advantages? The strategies outlined here require systematic implementation and continuous optimization. At The Good, we specialize in helping ecommerce brands optimize their conversion strategies when traditional price competition isn’t an option.

Let’s talk and see if there could be a good fit.

The post Why “We Can’t Compete Without MAP” Is the Wrong Problem to Solve appeared first on The Good.

But I’m here to tell you that while you might be raring to take action, there is one more key step to ensure success: sharing the roadmap across your organization.

And by this, I don’t mean sending out a single ‘FYI’ Slack message and calling it a day. I mean real communication that fosters understanding and alignment for what you have outlined in your roadmap. The way you communicate your roadmap could make or break all the incredible product optimizations and plans you have in there.

When cross-departmental teams are on board with your roadmap, there is no question about plans or prioritization. The roadmap serves as a shared plan of action and keeps the organization on track for product goals.

Here’s how you do it.

Give your roadmap a home and start building visibility

The first step in communicating a roadmap across the organization is creating a home for it. It needs to be visible and accessible to your team. Ideally, it lives somewhere that is natural to your internal workflows/tooling and is frequently accessed by your team.

This could mean:

• Uploading to Google Drive or Sharepoint
• Pinning to a dedicated Slack channel
• Creating a shared Airtable or Notion base

For the perfectionists out there, there’s no one right or wrong way to store your roadmap. It will depend on your organizational structure, size, and goals.

Once you have a home for your roadmap, start building visibility. While it’s good for you to know your roadmap like the back of your hand, it’s even better for your teammates to get invested.

A siloed roadmap is a debilitated roadmap, so make sure various team leads can access it.

Tailor the messaging based on stakeholders

A good product leader can bridge the gaps and translate messages across teams. This is a skill you’ll need to leverage when communicating the roadmap across your organization.

The best messaging for sharing the roadmap will likely look different based on the stakeholders you’re working with.

Leadership

Generally speaking, organizational leadership prefers to focus on high-level goals and outcomes rather than the specific features you’ll use to achieve those goals. While this isn’t true for every leader, it’s a good place to start.

Focus on themes in your roadmap to explain to your leadership or external stakeholders what you hope to achieve and your expected performance. How you achieve it doesn’t really matter as long as you’re solving the problem.

Outline what you’re trying to achieve and share what this stakeholder audience will find most relevant. For example:

• Themes
• Objectives
• Initiatives
• General timeframes

Individual contributors

When sharing with individual contributors, you’ll likely want to get into more of the “why” and the “how” than you would with leadership. It may spur some debate, but it will allow your team to discuss tactics within the context of the theme and possibly come up with unique ways to achieve your goals.

More specifics will come in handy, including:

• Specific tasks and milestones
• Detailed timelines
• Ownership

Shoulder teams

There is also value in sharing the roadmap with people who might not always be part of the product strategy or executing the roadmap but can offer a lot of valuable input based on their experience in other areas of the company.

Connecting across departments and getting early buy-in makes teams work faster and ship better products.

The most effective products are built with human-centered product management in mind. This ​​approach creates products and makes decisions based on and for the user, and it also prioritizes collaborating with teams outside of the day-to-day work and connecting with them where they are.

Shoulder teams benefit from knowing more theoretical elements like:

• How the roadmap impacts their roles/department
• Overview of projects
• What benefits and value it can drive

In many cases, working with different experts means learning to speak their language and translating between teams. Getting everyone on the same page can be tough, but it is worth the effort.

Pick the right forum and format

“The medium is the message” is a mantra repeated by communications leaders around the world. The forum in which you share a message is equally as important as or even more important than the message itself. This rings true for sharing roadmaps as well.

A roadmap isn’t just a list of priorities; it’s a story of where you’re going and why. Sharing that story in the right forum builds alignment and trust, while sharing it in the wrong one can leave it overlooked.

So, what are some ways to communicate your roadmap beyond typical sharing methods like a presentation or email?

In our conversations with B2B research leaders, René Bastijans gave some tips on how to circulate research that can be applied to roadmap dissemination as well. Visibility is key to making sure that teams reference the roadmap and use it to help make decisions.

He builds alignment and visibility through what he calls “Learning Lunches,” 25-minute presentations with Q&A designed to share insights and keep everyone moving in the same direction. You can apply the same approach to your roadmap by creating an informal, open forum where teams can ask questions and gain clarity on how the roadmap impacts their work.

Get together to present the roadmap and share updates on progress. This more casual approach to a presentation offers learning opportunities for the team, helps them feel ownership over the product, and, in turn, continued buy-in.

Another effective forum for communicating your roadmap is one-on-one conversations with the team. While you may not be able to get to everyone at the organization, finding ways to share your plan in a more intimate environment fosters trust and helps show more individually what impact the roadmap will have on their role.

At your organization, a presentation to each team or even an email might be the right fit. Just be sure to leverage a dedicated time when your audience is focused and invested.

Make sure your roadmap drives growth

Your roadmap is more than a strategic document. It’s a powerful tool to align teams, prioritize efforts, and deliver better user experiences. But even the most thoughtfully crafted roadmap can only reach its full potential if it’s communicated effectively across your organization.

By giving your roadmap a visible home, tailoring your messaging to different stakeholders, and selecting the right forums to share it, you can foster alignment, buy-in, and momentum for your product vision. Thoughtful communication transforms your roadmap from a static plan into a shared mission.

If you’re looking to build a customer-centric roadmap or need help identifying the highest-impact opportunities for your product, The Good can help. Our team of digital experience experts partners with companies to uncover customer insights, prioritize optimizations, and deliver measurable results.

Let’s work together to turn your product roadmap into a growth-driving force.

The post How To Communicate Your Roadmap Across The Organization appeared first on The Good.

A hot topic in the 2010s, it argues the merits of shipping fast against the merits of validating pre-launch. Over time, it’s been argued under different names like “test everything” or “founder-led growth.” But it all boils down to the same question: Is it better to validate before or after launching?

Every so often, it’s worth revisiting these hotly debated topics to ground ourselves (and our products) in strategic decision-making.

We have much more data, knowledge, and tech than when the debate started. So, let’s take a look at where the “test and learn” vs “launch and learn” stands and how to make your own decision on which approach is best.

Defining “test and learn” and “launch and learn”

First, full transparency. We’re big advocates for a “test and learn” culture.

As one of the first players in conversion rate optimization, The Good coined many strategies that support experimentation-led growth. We wholeheartedly believe that all ideas are hypotheses to be tested.

However, we also understand that everything has nuance, and there is no one-size-fits-all approach to product optimization. Each method has merits, depending on the business context.

Here’s how “test and learn” and “launch and learn” stack up in an apples-to-apples comparison.

Test and learn

Definition: Test and Learn is an iterative approach focused on experimentation, where hypotheses are tested through small-scale trials before broader implementation. It emphasizes data collection and analysis to inform decisions.

Methodology:

• Establish clear hypotheses before testing.
• Conducts controlled experiments (e.g., A/B testing) to evaluate specific variables.
• Utilizes metrics to assess performance against predefined KPIs.

Objectives:

• Minimize risk by validating ideas before full-scale rollout.
• Foster innovation through iterative learning, allowing teams to pivot based on results.
• Provide insights into customer behavior and preferences.
• Refine products or marketing strategies based on empirical data.
• Encourage a culture of continuous improvement and adaptation based on feedback.

Challenges:

• Time-consuming nature of extensive testing cycles.
• Potential for analysis paralysis if not managed properly.

Launch and learn

Definition: Launch and Learn focuses on quickly deploying products or features to the market, with the understanding that adjustments will be made based on real-world user feedback post-launch.

Methodology:

• Rapidly launch new offerings.
• Implement a feedback loop to continuously gather user input post-launch.
• Leverage insights to inform subsequent iterations.

Objectives:

• Accelerate time-to-market for new products or features.
• Gather immediate insights from actual users.
• Get faster identification of market needs based on user experience.
• Flexibility to pivot based on immediate user reactions.

Challenges

• Difficulty in managing customer expectations post-launch.
• Risks potential negative user experiences.

4 considerations when picking the right approach for your product

So, which one is better?

As with most things in optimization (and the world), the answer is “it depends.”

While there is no blanket approach to experimentation, there are some important considerations that can help guide your decision.

1. Stage of growth

Whether you choose a “test and learn” or “launch and learn” approach often depends on your company size and resource availability. Let your stage of growth be the primary guide for which experimentation approach you use.

For companies looking to find product-market fit, a “launch and learn” approach is often executed to get fast, real-time feedback. But to take your business from product-market fit to scale, it’s crucial to move past product-led growth best practices and take a “test and learn” approach.

When you are just starting to implement PLG practices, you may rely on hunches or best guesses. But as you grow, experimentation should happen pre-launch.

2. Risk level

Another consideration when picking an experimentation strategy is the level of risk associated with the changes or launch.

For example, if you’re working on a feature or journey that impacts the core user experience, you should always “test and learn” prior to launch. It would be a pretty big risk to “launch and learn” something broken in the core product experience and suddenly see your churn rate skyrocket.

However, if you’re launching a fix for a feature that is already broken, finding a quick, usable solution is more important than adhering to a strict “test and learn” approach.

3. Confidence level

Product management leader Marc Abraham advocates for a confidence check before launch to understand how much or little testing is needed.

He outlines the confidence levels as:

• “High Confidence: Our confidence in the upcoming release is high because we tested it thoroughly internally, have launched a similar product or feature before, or if there’s an issue the fallout will be small.
• Low Confidence: Our confidence in the upcoming release is low because we haven’t fully tested it, it’s based on new technology, or creates a totally new user experience.”

These are great guidelines for getting started. And if you are still unsure, you can perform what Emma Leyden calls a “gut check.”

“Your ‘gut check’ can be done in low-effort ways. It won’t give you the most confident answer, but something as simple as showing a design to friends and family before you launch can teach you a lot.”

While product intuition is important, remember we all have our biases. Sometimes, it’s hard to see our products from different perspectives, which is why testing or validating your ideas prior to launch is essential.

4. Product nature

Build it, and they will come!

That’s the motto of many “launch and learn” advocates, and rightfully so. If there is no product built in the first place, there is nothing to learn about.

But that’s only true if what you’re launching is simple and functional.

The complexity (or simplicity) of the product/feature can be a major consideration when deciding on your experimentation approach. Complex, high-investment products should use “test and learn” to validate the user experience and also support your investments pre-launch.

Whatever you choose, make sure you learn

While we’re champions of “test and learn,” we know that time-crunched growth leaders don’t always have that luxury. The most important takeaway is to never launch and leave.

Regardless of the approach, the goal should always be to learn. Collect and analyze both quantitative and qualitative data and use those insights to iterate.

Abraham says, “I view releasing something without learning from it as a cardinal sin. It’s very important to continuously learn from real users and actual usage (or not) about your key hypotheses.”

Experiment-led growth

If you’re ready to move from product-market fit to scale and would like to improve your experiment-led growth practices, The Good can help.

We build a culture of experimentation within SaaS companies and spur growth through better UX across the product lifecycle.

Our methodologies discover untapped opportunities and improve KPIs, including registration, activation, engagement, monetization, expansion, and win-back.

The post Is “Test and Learn” or “Launch and Learn” Better?  appeared first on The Good.

So, as a leader, it’s important to adapt. Kalah Arsenault knows this well.

Over the course of her career, she’s been tasked with everything from turning data into actionable insights and advocating for data-driven analysis to building experimentation programs.

Currently, she leads the marketing optimization team at Autodesk, the global leader in 3D design, engineering, and entertainment software.

We had the chance to sit down with her and get the inside scoop on:

• Standing up an A/B testing program
• A simple prioritization model making an impact
• Measuring and circulating optimization learnings

Marketing optimization for a leading software company

As the marketing optimization team lead, Kalah digs into all the nooks and crannies of the company’s marketing efforts to make it more effective and efficient.

The marketing optimization team at Autodesk sits on the operations team at the intersection between marketing operations and technology. Partnering with marketing teams to improve campaign effectiveness, Kalah and the marketing optimization team bridge the gap between data, marketing know-how, and testing expertise.

When shakeups a few years ago halted all A/B testing on the Autodesk website, Kalah was eager to partner with the website team to re-enable experimentation. A self-proclaimed marketing, analytics & optimization enthusiast, Kalah brings a consistent data-backed ethos to her work. And her background tee’d her up for success. Kalah jump-started her professional life in advertising and ecommerce. The experience working in stakeholder-facing roles gave her a unique ability to turn data into stories and prove the value of iterating your way to success.

Standing up an A/B testing program

The challenge was clear. Without an experimentation program in place, the team was left without the data needed to fuel good decision-making.

“The data will tell you what is the right choice and it takes decision-making out of the process,” she said when asked how data plays a role in her decision-making. It can even go so far as to be said that they don’t just affect the process, they are the process. “Experimentation and data can be the decision-making process.”

So, it was crucial to get the A/B testing program back on its feet in order to bring that clarity to the work she was doing day-to-day.

To start, Kalah and her team put their experience into practice, creating an A/B testing roadmap. This was a crucial step, requiring them to define goals, align with stakeholders, and assess priorities and risks of optimization. Because of a new organizational structure, on top of the complexity of rebuilding the A/B testing program, there was an added obstacle to working across different marketing teams.

The optimization and web teams worked together to establish clear parameters, agreements, and definitions of what could or could not be tested. There is now a huge, pre-approved sandbox to play in, allowing optimizers the chance to find iterations that improve UX and marketing KPIs.

Whether you’re a researcher, an analyst, a marketer, or an optimization specialist, a well-made roadmap connects you with the clear steps needed to begin experimenting.

For Kalah, this meant:

• Identifying objectives for the testing program
• Establishing marketing and website challenges
• Isolating testing opportunities
• Formulating testing hypotheses
• Prioritizing testing opportunities

With frameworks in place, they were ready to get back to work.

While other optimization leaders can follow a similar strategy of aligning with stakeholders and building a roadmap, standing up an A/B testing program is no small feat. So, if you don’t have the resources or a dedicated team like Autodesk, she has some advice.

“What I primarily suggest is hiring someone who specializes in the practice. I think the expertise to identify optimization opportunities, design the tests, see it through implementation, measure the results, and provide recommendations and next steps is incredibly impactful.”

And while there are some savvy marketers that can do this, she emphasizes that “it's a separate skill set and expertise.” So whether you hire for that as a full-time role or you look to agencies to bring that expertise, Kalah strongly recommends companies consider experts to lead the charge.

For example, “at a high level, a test may show one version outperforming another,” she says. “But digging deeper often reveals different results by segment, whether by job profile, country, or industry. We aim to look beyond primary KPIs to fully understand what’s driving the outcome.” That level of nuance is hard to find in a busy marketer, so it’s best to have dedicated optimizers around who can take the time to know and understand audiences.

A prioritization model to drive velocity

With the A/B testing program back up and running, Kalah and her team had their plates full finding efficiencies and improvements across Autodesk’s marketing efforts.

Not only were there opportunities identified in their research, but teams across the organization were submitting requests and ideas for their consideration.

The list was long. The optimization team wasn’t sure what the “most important first thing” to work on was, and marketing stakeholders didn’t understand why their projects weren’t top of the list for testing. There was an opportunity to clarify and get more done quickly.

The solution? A prioritization model aimed at:

• Increase testing volume
• Aligning teams
• Saving time

While lots of testing folks would hear “prioritization model” and go straight to the mathematical elements, Kalah needed a model that was simple, easy to calculate, and transparent for all parties.

Kalah and her team built out an auto-calculated prioritization model as part of their optimization requests intake process. It involves three elements:

• Business impact: Measured based on whether the request aligns with the marketing plan, which is agreed upon by everyone from CMO to entry-level marketing team member.
• Level of effort: Internal criteria that identify a higher or lower level of effort.
• Urgency: Assess the request with questions like: Does it need to be executed immediately? Does it impact a larger project immediately? Does this effort have backing from a senior leader in marketing?

The intake process asks questions related to the criteria mentioned, and then logic set up in Asana auto-calculates the prioritization of the experiment or optimization. “This is what saves us time and energy,” she says. It eliminates looping conversations and time to manually prioritize things amongst the team.

Kalah emphasizes the power of this setup. “We don't do mathematical calculations to assess the level of business impact or length of time to reach statistical significance. That's too resource-intensive, and we'd be spending all our time assessing and prioritizing. With our automated prioritization model, we can spend our time on launching and analyzing tests and making business impact.”

And it worked.

“We were able to double the amount of tests our team took on within one year. So from this compared to last year we doubled the volume of testing with a new operating and prioritization model.”

Measuring marketing optimization success

The volume of tests is just one of the key metrics Kalah identified for measuring her team’s success.

It can be tough to find just one KPI to prove the value of optimization, given the nature of working across teams, products, and audiences. So, instead of focusing on 1:1 measurement, they look at a variety of metrics, including:

• Volume of tests
• Volume of analyses
• Customer satisfaction score
• How many marketers are seeing/learning from the findings

In the end, her team’s goal is to look at how marketing campaigns are performing and then give advice on how to make them better. So, while each test or optimization has its own KPI related to growth, as a team they are measured more holistically.

With prioritization and test volume locked down, she is ready to move the needle on insights shared.

“I'd really love to put more energy towards amplifying the impact of each test and getting the findings out to as many marketing teams as possible. We've already seen this working through a newsletter that's sharing our testing results and analysis work. We've also been hosting quarterly brown bag style meetings with the most universally applicable test results that marketers could implement themselves.”

This year, Kalah is also hoping to find new ways to turn insights into action. “I am also hoping to dive into data visualizations and figuring out how to make our findings more snackable and basically getting to a place where people want to read them and it's easy and enjoyable.”

These goals directly align with her team’s measurements for success. Other optimization leaders can take a page from Kalah’s playbook here by letting individual tests focus on the marketing metrics and determine departmental success based on insights, experiments, or other relevant measurements.

How can you replicate some of Kalah’s success?

Kalah’s advice to those new to optimization is simple yet impactful: start small, and stay curious. “Get to know your data, experiment with tools, and don’t be afraid to make tweaks,” she says. “You might be surprised at the impact even small changes can have.”

Her overarching message is one of optimism and opportunity. “Optimization is about evolving and improving—for your customers, your organization, and yourself,” she concludes.

Yet, good optimization leaders know that you can’t do it all alone. Internally, Kalah’s team employs a mix of full-time employees, contractors, and agency partners to meet the demands of scaling optimization efforts. “Contractors and agencies can help manage peaks in the workload,” she notes.

“I come from an agency background. I've always been a fan of working with full-time employees, but I realized as we're trying to scale and grow the amount of impact we're making as a team, it's really important to have contractors or agency partners to support higher demand and the peaks and valleys of work.”

By embracing a data-driven mindset, prioritizing strategically, and fostering cross-team collaboration, Kalah exemplifies what it means to lead impactful optimization efforts. If you need an expert partner to help manage a robust roadmap, get to know our Digital Experience Optimization Program.

The post How Kalah Arsenault’s Team Stood Up An A/B Testing Program & Doubled Volume With A New Prioritization Model appeared first on The Good.

Heuristics play a crucial role in how customers navigate and perceive digital experiences. So, we developed a framework called the Heuristics for Digital Experience Optimization to theme common optimization issues and opportunities through the lens of heuristics.

Leveraging the tool keeps users at the center of analyses and, when done correctly, ensures your strategy creates journeys that feel familiar, do what they say, and function intuitively.

One of the six Heuristics for Digital Experience Optimization focuses on incentives. In this article, we’ll explore how SaaS teams can leverage the Incentives Heuristic to build better user experiences and ultimately increase referrals through a well-done SaaS referral program.

How does the Incentives Heuristic work?

The goal of the Incentives Heuristic is to find opportunities for digital experiences to motivate users to take action. For example, sharing promotional offers or guarantees to get a user to register, convert free-to-paid, or make a referral would fall under the Incentives Heuristic.

Instead of relying on discounts, which have historically been the go-to to incentivize an action, digital experiences that adhere to this heuristic typically incentivize with offers that add value for the user and don’t devalue the product, such as bonus features or upgrades.

One great way to leverage the Incentives Heuristic is to build a referral program.

The power of a SaaS referral program

Well-done SaaS referral programs leverage incentives to encourage existing users to promote your tool.

The goal is to harness word-of-mouth referrals and increase product relevance and reach.

SaaS referral programs work well because they systemize the referral process and make it easy for users to share products with their network. And with 86% of B2B buyers saying word-of-mouth is the most influential factor in making purchase decisions, it’s an incredibly important part of the sales cycle.

Referral programs are effective for SaaS companies because of the social nature of tools. Professional peers frequently share their favorite tools and discuss new options in their communities. Incentivizing these conversations makes them mutually beneficial.

It’s a win-win. Your customer receives valuable incentives and trusted recommendations while you generate an organic growth cycle and harness positive network effects.

Viral growth loops

A growth loop is a compounding referral motion that leverages existing users to grow your user base through referrals. Referrals help keep marketing expenses low and increase the potential value of every new user.

Unlike traditional funnel frameworks, growth loops turn each interaction into a chance to draw in new users. When they start spinning on their own, they lead to lower customer acquisition costs and increased loyalty.

Positive network effects

SaaS referral programs that center on user benefits and incentives create positive network effects.

A positive network effect is when the value of a SaaS tool increases as the user base grows. For many companies, this larger user base leads to increased retention, bigger advertising budgets, unique user-generated content, improved user trust, and more.

How the best SaaS referral programs incentivize users

As mentioned, a straight discount or percentage off isn’t always the right way to incentivize referrals. Here are a few ways SaaS tools creatively incentivize users AND show the value of their product.

Service upgrades

Companies can incentivize referrals by offering upgraded account status. For example, Trello rewards referrers with one month of their “Premium” level service for each signup, up to 12 months. This gives users access to a new service level with a variety of new features and member benefits.

Dropbox pioneered the dual-sided incentive model, rewarding both the referrer and the new user with additional storage space. Referrers earn 500 MB for each successful referral, while new users receive 500 MB upon signing up, creating a viral loop that significantly boosts their user base.

Premium features

Some companies offer access to specific features as part of their referral program to add value for users while showing off the capabilities of their products. Evernote uses a points system where users can redeem points to unlock premium features. This tiered reward system encourages multiple referrals and gamifies the process.

Value-based offers

Another way to incentivize users is to offer a product that aligns with your tool’s value proposition. GetResponse combines financial rewards with educational incentives by offering the referrer and the new user a $30 reward alongside a digital marketing certification valued at $200 after three successful referrals. This approach aligns with the professional development goals of many users.

Credits

While we don’t necessarily recommend cash rewards or discounts, credits can be a valuable way to drive referrals. Airtable provides a $10 account credit for each referral, and DigitalOcean offers a $200 credit for new users to explore their services for 60 days. Referrers earn a $25 credit once the referred user spends their first $25, making it attractive for both parties.

Best practices for a SaaS referral program that leverages the incentives heuristic

Once you have the idea to build a SaaS referral program or optimize an existing one, these are a few best practices to keep in mind.

Stay user-centered

The key to building a successful SaaS referral program is to prioritize the user. Conduct research to understand what they want and tailor the program to their needs.

Your rewards structure should be based on what motivates them, and then the UX should be seamless to your digital platform. For example, provide easy-to-share unique referral links and offer in-app dashboards for users to track their referrals and rewards.

Also, make the act of referring intuitive, reminding users when it is natural to the actions they’re already taking. By integrating these incentives directly into their digital experience, SaaS companies make referral programs an engaging and rewarding part of using their products.

Gamify the rewards system

Make your referral process fun, easy, and satisfying to refer users. One way to do this is to gamify the experience. Gamification is the use of game mechanics in nongame contexts, and many SaaS companies do this extremely well in their actual product experience but not necessarily in their referral experience.

Leveraging gamification to find ways to make tasks more engaging and to make the referral process entertaining encourages users to track their success, refer more customers, and unlock rewards.

Align incentives with your value proposition

Incentives work best when they’re aligned with what makes your product compelling, so your first step is to clarify your offer and/or value proposition.

Ask yourself: What core action do users find most valuable? What helps them realize the most value from your product?

Then, incorporate incentives that encourage users to make referrals. These don’t have to be financial rewards. Sometimes, the product’s value is plenty, like in the case of Dropbox where users get more storage (the product’s primary value) for sharing. Closer alignment to the value will encourage more sharing.

Strategically place incentives throughout the user journey

Users love incentives like upgrades, guarantees, and other promises, but can fail to see them when they are in the thick of purchase indecision, comparing a number of other variables.

Placing key incentives near CTAs can increase the visibility of the offer and increase conversion readiness.

Incorporate optimization

There is no one-size-fits-all referral program or incentivization strategy. To find what works for you, test and validate ways to make sharing a natural part of your product experience.

Some tools you can leverage to iterate on the experience include rapid experimentation, user testing, A/B testing, or simply talking to your customers or customer service team to identify pain points.

And if you aren’t sure how to do this on your own, hire an expert for support.

Incentivize referrals to spur SaaS growth

So, now you have a starting point for building a strong referral program with heuristics in mind. But, the Incentives Heuristic is only one of the six Heuristics for Digital Experience Optimization. The full list includes:

• Priming & Expectation Setting
• Trust & Authority
• Ease
• Benefits & Unique Selling Points
• Directional Guidance
• Incentives

Each heuristic can help you identify and theme optimization issues or opportunities. These are the building blocks for a theme-based roadmap and are indispensable for any data-backed product team.

At The Good, we leverage the heuristics and work with your team to implement optimizations and build viral loops that help you scale faster. Learn more about how we increase referrals and get in touch here.

The post Building Viral Growth: Leveraging Incentives in SaaS Referral Programs & Strategies appeared first on The Good.

About This Episode:

Creating a well-designed SaaS website requires a strategic approach. In this episode, Jon and Ryan discuss the key fundamentals of creating a SaaS marketing website that not only attracts and engages users but also converts them into customers.

Check out the full episode to learn:

• Why identifying your target audience’s needs, behaviors, and pain points comes first.
• How to deliver a seamless experience that connects with your customers, answers their questions, and shows them how to take the next step.
• The importance of regularly testing and validating your website with your audience.

If you have questions, ideas, or feedback to share, connect with us on LinkedIn. We’re Jon MacDonald and Ryan Garrow.

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Episode Transcript:

Announcer: [00:00:00] You’re listening to Drive and Convert a podcast about helping online brands to build a better ecommerce growth engine with Jon MacDonald and Ryan Garrow.

Ryan Garrow: Jon, you without much of an argument or debate, do know quite a bit more about sales. SaaS products than I do. Your team has done phenomenally well at helping SaaS companies scale over the last few years. A ton about ecomm, we know that, but SaaS is a, it’s a unique area for me because I don’t lean into it nearly as much as I should probably, especially hearing some of the things you talked about leading into this podcast recording, you have some great insights on what you need to be doing from a SaaS company when you’re building the website. And there isn’t necessarily, and maybe you’ll correct me through this podcast, but it’s not as simple as Oh, there’s like a Shopify for SaaS. You just put it up and then it automatically converts at this range.

And it’s yeah, you’re done now. You just collect money and it’s awesome. There probably needs to be, maybe we need to go [00:01:00] on another tangent and solve for that and create a Shopify for SaaS because when you’re going B2B, I feel like there’s a really high expectation of what you’re going to get on the marketing site.

There’s so many ways to do it wrong because you can go so many different directions and you’re applying probably to a vast spectrum of clients on that first marketing page, not knowing what you’re going to hit. So you’ve got a lot of data here. So I’m excited to hear about this. You’re going to talk to us about how to, I assume, remove some friction on these sites and make it super simple SaaS product. Is that right?

Jon MacDonald: That’s right. Yeah, I think begin and maintain as well.

Ryan Garrow: Got it. Okay. And so when you’re setting up your SaaS website, you’ve outlined in the notes here, 11 fundamentals for a marketing website that you want to cover today. And there’s different pieces of SaaS, right? There’s the front end marketing site, and then there’s the actual product that you can optimize as well.

So we’re focusing on Marketing, which I like, but it’s how you’re acquiring customers. Customer acquisition websites, essentially.

Jon MacDonald: [00:02:00] Exactly. Yeah. This is for the marketing website. Let’s just say pre conversion to becoming a trialist or a paid user of your SaaS tool.

Ryan Garrow: Okay. So there’s 11 things we need to be paying attention to when we’re looking at the design on these that are going to make sure that we don’t do something dumb and create a bunch of friction. We don’t need to.

Jon MacDonald: There you go. Before we jump in, I just want to be clear about one quick thing, and that’s that. You called it out, right? The SaaS digital journey does not always begin or end with your website. For instance, your user’s journey might start when they read a recommendation on another site.

And in SaaS, there’s several of these, right? You got G2, you’ve got all of these other top whatever sites that are out there for apps, right? You got Product Hunt, you got all these. Great resources for small, especially small and medium businesses that are looking to purchase a new tool, right? And solve a pain point that they have.

Usually, it starts with them doing some research. Okay? And then it [00:03:00] ends when they have a conversation with enterprise, with a salesperson, or with them converting into that trial user.

Ryan Garrow: Okay. It’s obviously imperative to have a seamless experience that connects with the customers. Answers questions and then basically tells them how to take the next step because it’s, we’re multi step.

It’s, I joked about click funnels. It’s all about click funnels to a degree. It’s you’re just moving people down a process and it’s not where to. And you

Jon MacDonald: mentioned earlier that there’s not like a Shopify for SaaS brands, and I would say that there’s several tools out there that are trying to do that.

So there are tools that can help you now for the front end marketing side, right? Not necessarily for the app itself, although AI is coming a long way. And maybe that’s a whole nother show about how you can, as a single person, tell AI what you want and have it generate the entire app for you now. The code may or may not be usable, but it’s there, right?

It’s the one thing to debate, but I think, creating that well designed SaaS website does require a strategic approach. And that’s the thing [00:04:00] that I want to break down and talk about of these fundamentals, because it’s important to focus on these several key fundamentals. There’s not just one, there’s actually 11 that we’ll talk about quickly today.

If you’re listening to this, 11 sounds like a lot. I promise you we’ll move through them pretty quickly, but they’re all important and things that we’ve seen come up time and time again. And these all enhance that user engagement and customer satisfaction. What we’re aiming to do with these fundamentals is to help you to create a SaaS website that not only attracts and engages users, but also will convert them into customers.

Ryan Garrow: I like it. Okay. Look, let’s dive in then. I want to start getting through this list. Yeah, sure. I’m going to learn some cool things here. Okay. So step one where do you start in this journey? Like I’m based on your car conversations, I guess I could hypothesize, but

Jon MacDonald: yeah, the first one is starting by understanding your user.

So you begin by identifying your target audiences, needs, behaviors, and pain points. These are all things that would be key to good product design [00:05:00] anyways. If you have a great product design team, getting them involved in the marketing side can be helpful here. But this understanding also guides the design and the content strategy of your site and really helps you to ensure that your website serves your users well.

Ryan Garrow: What happens if you’re not necessarily sure about who your user is going to be? Do you have to have multiple instances you test at the same time for that or do you have to pick one and go?

Jon MacDonald: Normally, if you have product market fit, But you should have a good understanding of who your consumer is going to be.

Where in ecomm, that could be much wider. In SaaS, you typically have somebody who’s approaching with a very specific problem that you’re solving for them. So you’re able to talk to that problem. That’s where I think, it varies from e com, but also it is something that is actually helpful because that’s really going to be able to guide talking to consumers because you’ll be able to find the right people.

And guide actually writing [00:06:00] content for them, where you’re going to be able to address that specific pain point at each step.

Ryan Garrow: Got it. Okay, that is much simpler, actually, because you go into e com thinking you know where you’re going to be, and then all of a sudden you’re like, Oh, we, these people found us and liked us even more.

Jon MacDonald: Honestly, that may happen SaaS, and it does quite often. You think about Slack is a great example of this. Slack did not start out as a company that made a chat, right? SaaS, I believe that Slack was a gaming company at one point, and they had built this tool to have internal conversations.

And then that became the thing that everybody wanted and was like, this, we have something here. This is pretty cool. We should sell this. And so that’s how they ended up down the line. There are now a billion dollar companies sold to Salesforce.

Ryan Garrow: Taking lots of my money every month. Okay. So we know who our user is.

And you mentioned the content, so I guess we’re informing our content creation on the site to make it, to put it there, right? But is there more about the content we need?

Jon MacDonald: [00:07:00] Yeah. So the second thing is keeping that content compelling. Because it’s very easy if you feel like you know the audience to not make it compelling.

Make it as engaging as it could be. You really want to make sure your content is engaging. And it, that really, I keep saying that word because it’s crucial. It is crucial for capturing and retaining interest, right? You really want somebody to be reading down the page and say, yes, that’s me. Yes. I have that problem.

Yes. Great. This sounds like the solution for me. And as they continue down that journey, so using clear, concise, and persuasive language here, that’s going to speak directly to that audience’s needs and highlight the benefits of how you solve that for them. So you can do things like using imagery. People love actual product shots, not just illustrations, right?

They love videos. Anytime you do a video walkthrough or click snippets of things being used, it really helps visitors to learn. about the product.

Ryan Garrow: Don’t just give me a marketing video on the marketing page. I think [00:08:00] that’s where people will often confuse Oh, I’ve used your video that we used to run an ad one time.

We should put that on there.

Jon MacDonald: Yeah. No, you definitely, it goes back to the same thing as ecommerce. I say all the time that marketing’s won once somebody’s gotten to your site. Time to actually help them solve their pain or need.

Ryan Garrow: And number three is use directional guidance to help users find what they need.

Thanks again. And directing them down the page further or to contact forms?

Jon MacDonald: Yeah. Directional guidance is this kind of umbrella term that really encompasses anything that puts the user on a path to help them find what they want. That can be navigation, calls to action, strategic use of white space, right?

Nothing at all could be helpful. I think, you start, working in that direction. on how you’re going to guide people along that journey and help them find the necessary information and tools that’s important for them. It’s a very kind of umbrella term, but it really is something that needs to be considered.

Where are you telling these people to go next? Where are you influencing [00:09:00] their journey on your site?

Ryan Garrow: That helps quite a bit there. Your next point might be one of my most frustrating in the business B2B world. As I search for apps and things that help my business, but it’s a seamless customer experience.

The website on the desktop complements what I’m seeing on the, on my mobile device. Cause I often am jumping devices throughout days, weeks, even, and not everybody does this very

Jon MacDonald: well. No, but I think, the key here is to have a smooth user experience that optimizes the website’s performance.

You can make it responsive, but. Ensuring usability across all devices, as you mentioned, you really just need to fix anything that’s broken or introduces friction into that experience and consider each step what devices they might be on all the way from that initial conversion and beyond. How many times have you have fired up an asset, a SaaS app and tried to use it on your iPhone in a mobile browser, and it just doesn’t even work, right?

You’re just like, Oh, what am I doing here? I can’t, [00:10:00] it’s way too big, and it’s not responsive. There are tools that are just meant to be used on desktop, and I understand that, but not delivering a seamless user experience across all devices is a huge issue for a lot of SaaS brands, and you really want to make sure that’s touched on your marketing site.

You’re setting the tone for the rest of what it’s going to be like. And if your marketing site doesn’t work across different platforms, then people sure aren’t going to think that your app is either.

Ryan Garrow: Yeah, there was even just, I think, I forget which one it was. It was a competitor to DocuSign. But I had to execute something on a mobile device, and it was the worst.

I actually stopped and had to wait till later in the day to get back to my computer because it was like, I just, I couldn’t get the fields to work. It was embarrassingly bad. I’m sorry to hear that. I can’t blast them, but I hope it wasn’t Panda Doc. DocuSign does a great job at that. Yeah,

Jon MacDonald: DocuSign does a great one.

That’s one of the benefits of pretty much owning the realtor and real estate, because those folks are setting those things up on [00:11:00] the go all the time. If you’ve ever had to sign a real estate contract, 99 percent chance it came from DocuSign. There’s a lot of them out there now, and they’re all competing on very similar functionality.

So if you don’t have a seamless journey, you might as well just stop.

Ryan Garrow: If that ever happened again, I’d be like no, I’ll send you a docu sign. Let’s do it this way.

Jon MacDonald: Yeah, exactly. Download the document, resend it to them.

Ryan Garrow: Yes. All right. Number five is design with product verbs in mind. This is not something I would have thought of.

Jon MacDonald: Yeah, we actually have a whole article about product verbs up on the good. com. Just go search verbs or whatever you feel comfortable with on the good. But the reality here is that you really want to focus on action oriented language that emphasizes the core functionalities of your product. Okay. So that’s why it’s called verbs, product verbs, because you’re really trying to convey actions that users can take, such as create, manage, track, analyze, right?

These are all things that make the [00:12:00] benefits of the product clear to the end users.

Ryan Garrow: And I would imagine this is not one where you’re going to be like, Oh, let’s think of some cool synonyms to maybe sound different. This is just keep it simple, stupid almost. Yeah.

Jon MacDonald: You don’t want to get cute with this by any means.

But you definitely want to communicate in a manner that is going to help people understand what it’s like. You hear this all the time about resumes. If you’ve ever read a resume filled with these type of verbs, it feels like that person’s way more qualified, right? They’re like, I curated, I influenced, I managed, I did these things, right?

Where if you just say I was part of a team. That doesn’t sound as good. If you say, I led the team, or I did, had some action with the team. I was an integral part of the team. You really want to influence with the verbs. And it’s the same thing here. You’re trying to sell your product through.

You really want people to understand how it’s going to benefit them.

Announcer: You’re listening to Drive and Convert a podcast focused on ecommerce growth. Your [00:13:00] hosts are Jon MacDonald, founder of The Good, a conversion rate optimization agency that works with ecommerce brands to help convert more of their visitors into buyers.

And Ryan Garrow of Logical Position, a digital marketing agency offering pay per click management, search engine optimization, and website design services to brands of all sizes.

If you find this podcast helpful, please help us out by leaving a review on Apple podcasts and sharing it with a friend or colleague. Thank you.

Ryan Garrow: Oh man, this one is probably, I mentioned the non seamless experience. But being clear about pricing and plans, Oh man, maybe I’m young enough. I don’t like it. Maybe I’m too old. I just don’t like, I don’t know. There’s something in there that I do not want to talk to sales. What does it cost? Okay, great.

Does it make sense? Let me make that determination, but don’t force me to talk to somebody before you tell me how much things cost.

Jon MacDonald: Ryan is a hundred percent of get off my lawn guy.

Transparency [00:14:00] and pricing and subscription plans builds trust, okay? So that’s what you’re talking about. Like you say, Hey, I want to know what I’m getting into, right? You want to aid that decision making process. And that is what’s key here, clearly presenting all the options available. Including the features and costs and then helping consumers choose the plan that best fits them.

All of that can be done without a salesperson. And in fact, so many SaaS brands try to integrate salespeople, they think that’s the route they need to go. When in reality, they’re probably any gains they have by. inserting a person who’s really just there to convince often, unfortunately, they lose by people who just give up and go to a competitor who makes it real easy in that research phase to understand what they’re getting into.

Ryan Garrow: I feel like if you need a sales people or sales person to get it across, your product probably isn’t developed well enough. So that’s just the way my perception is. When I’m looking at it, if you can’t tell me how much it costs, you have to get somebody [00:15:00] on the phone to sell me because it’s not good enough on its own.

Jon MacDonald: Yeah.

Ryan Garrow: Yeah. And that’s how I personally approach it.

Jon MacDonald: There are benefits from the SaaS perspective, right? Of saying, Hey, I’m going to have a salesperson on my team and really what they’re doing is not there to sell and convince. They’re there to understand what are the common questions? What are the key pain points?

Why are people calling? What did they think our app does? When I give them a demo, where do they go? Oh, I like that. Or, Ooh, that’s a problem. Or I, does it also do X, Y, and Z? That’s very similar to what customer service role plays at Ecom. And I say consistently. Get customer service involved and optimizing your e com website.

It’s the same thing here. If you have salespeople, they should be contributing content back to the site. And ideally, as a SaaS brand, a salesperson gets on the call, and they should just be confirming. If you’ve done the right job, that person should just be saying, yeah, so you need this customization.

We can work out a [00:16:00] custom plan for you. Or saying, yeah, our feature does that you do you want a demo? Let me give you the demo answering questions you have. That’s great. But they shouldn’t be there to do cold calls and outbound calls and then say, I got to convince you of X, Y, and Z. They should be more of a consultative sale at that point.

Ryan Garrow: Love it. Okay. I knew this one was coming because it’s Jon MacDonald, but we’re going to test and validate with our audiences.

Jon MacDonald: Yeah. Are you surprised this is more than halfway down the list? I would say regularly test your website with real users. I, we could probably almost skip this because it’s a broken record with me.

A/B testing, user surveys, analytics, validate your design choices to ensure they’re meeting that user expectations and produce a user friendly design before you do anything. And I’ll just say here, I understand if you need an agency to help you with this. Might we might know somebody

Ryan Garrow: a little hint there. Jon. There you go. It’s not the first thing [00:17:00] you do though it’s are these kind of in order of a process you would have somebody go through like this is Generally best after you’ve been already clear about your pricing and plans and before we get to the next step

Jon MacDonald: I would say You know, you can pick and choose from this list.

They’re not in any specific order, but I do think that they are in the order of, I would say, to me, anyways, importance. You’re going to start with one and work your way down to the bottom of the list because they start building off of each other, right? You can’t really test and validate until you have some idea of who your audience is, right?

So you have to have that understanding first, right?

Ryan Garrow: Once you have some traffic, you’re testing and validating. Getting some feedback and then you’re going to use that feedback, I assume. And you’re going to iterate on your website design and feed that loop back almost. So like the seven and eight points probably are almost circular constantly.

If you’re really trying to grow your SaaS product.

Jon MacDonald: And that’s really why they’re lower on this list because they’re going to continually. cycle through making sure [00:18:00] that you’re validating and testing, but then you’re iterating on your website design. So you’re putting that test and validation back into your site and, every website, including SaaS, should evolve based on user feedback.

There’s always technological advancements, there’s changing market trends. The reality here is, Just continually update and refine, right? Same thing you might do with ecommerce, but I think you have a lot more leeway with SaaS to do this because you’re not stuck to having to find a template that works across hundreds of SKUs.

You’re really trying to hammer home one key solving point that you have. That’s really something that’s going to enhance that user experience and stay ahead of the competitors.

Ryan Garrow: Now, one thing this doesn’t mention in your notes is landing squeeze pages on your website, you should have lots of them.

Jon MacDonald: It’s not here.

Ryan Garrow: Yeah, it’s not here.

Jon MacDonald: And I think that’s a great point. Almost what’s not on these lists as much as what is, right? I think that having a hundred [00:19:00] different landing pages is a sign that you still don’t have great product market fit. Now, if you have a handful that are around specific pain points and you know you can solve a couple of pain points or maybe there’s a couple of industries like we talked about DocuSign and Realtors or maybe DocuSign and legal like lawyer teams or, there’s a whole bunch of different ways you could use a tool like that at that point, you can have a landing page for each of those that talks to the specific page.

angle on that same pain point for them, right? You got to get documents signed in an efficient manner. What does that look like for them? It’s different. I guarantee you a lawyer, not guarantee, but I will say high likelihood your legal team is not sending a docu sign from their phone. Just probably not.

But a realtor on the road, ready to get that offer in a hundred percent, probably doing that. They would approach that a little differently.

Ryan Garrow: Yeah, I like that. Okay, that leads right into your ninth point, ensuring mobile optimization.

Jon MacDonald: Yeah. So with an increasing number of users accessing websites on [00:20:00] mobile, you need to make sure it’s optimized for mobile.

I almost feel like I shouldn’t have to say this one, but unfortunately we do. And for as much as people have pushed it in ecommerce, SaaS is still behind on this. They really are. They often aren’t using responsive design. The loading times are slower because they just expect you’re on a corporate network or that, you’re okay with it being a little slower.

And in a lot of cases, consumers are, so that’s fine, but it doesn’t mean you shouldn’t try to optimize, especially for smaller screens, right? You want that smooth experience across all devices.

Ryan Garrow: And Google’s ranking those first time from an SEO standpoint. Yeah. So if you’re going to compete, you got to go to that Google site and see what Google thinks of it. Yeah.

Jon MacDonald: That’s a great idea.

Ryan Garrow: Mobile first. Not desktop. Love it. Even if that’s what your users will do.

Jon MacDonald: Yeah. And you can understand too. There are plenty of SaaS tools that are really desktop first and I get that. I wouldn’t want to be doing QuickBooks on my phone. I just wouldn’t. There are some functions of QuickBooks that I would want to do, but I [00:21:00] would not want to be maintaining a P& L and running reports and doing that type of stuff on my phone.

But, it doesn’t mean that there aren’t functionalities that I would want on my phone. And it doesn’t mean I’m not going to do research about the tool itself on the marketing website on my phone. That is something that is very likely. Regardless of whether or not your app is Desktop first or mobile first, you should be making sure your website is mobile first.

Ryan Garrow: Your next point, 10, I would say is probably an area that SaaS is ahead of a lot of the ecomm potentially, but it’s focusing on accessibility and those with certain abilities or lack of ability to read and engage with your site. ecommerce has struggled at scale for sure to label their images and.

Jon MacDonald: Which is interesting to me. I often wonder why ecomm struggles with this as much as they do. And I think that you’re seeing over the past five or six years, a lot of those lawsuits from lawyers who do nothing but chase down these e com sites. [00:22:00] And, I think that’s because they’ve already, those same lawyers have already run their way through every SaaS site.

And so they made their way to ecomm next. Because SaaS has all the money in the world to, to pay them off, right? And settle. But ecomm typically doesn’t. So they knew the margins were thin there. They’re not gonna, go after where the margins are thin. It’s just not as big of a return. I think they’ve worked through most of SaaS now.

SaaS is really good about accessibility. But I think, number 10 on this list is focus on accessibility. You have to design your website to be accessible to all users, including those with disabilities. It’s just, you need to do it. You’re leaving out. A large segment of the population. If you’re not doing that, all texts for images you mentioned, that’s great.

Keyboard navigation is huge color contrast. If you even go to HubSpot’s blog, now HubSpot’s blog. I’ll let you do a high contrast mode and they have a on every single page, they have a toggle. It’s like high [00:23:00] contrast or not. It really is something that you can tell if HubSpot’s doing it. It has really worked its way into SaaS.

If you’re not focusing on this and haven’t came this far, you’re behind

Ryan Garrow: for sure. So focus on that accessibility. And then final point, number 11 is leveraging social proof, which in e comm comes naturally you gotta have that, but

Jon MacDonald: Exactly. It does come naturally, and you see there’s so many tools out there asking for reviews.

There’s really only one that I ever hear about from B2B, and that’s G2. It’s the only one that ever emails me and says, Hey, leave a review for this product. And you’re just like, Okay, I don’t know. But here’s the reality is that if you incorporate customer testimonials, case studies, even reviews build credibility and trust.

You’re going to be ahead of the game. You can’t forget to do that. And I promise you, just putting a star rating, et cetera, is not going to get the job done. Same thing that you have on e com. You really need to make sure that you are showcasing world [00:24:00] success stories here. And you really want to make sure positive feedback is from existing users.

You’ll see a lot that will have influencers in SaaS world. That’s happening more and more now, and not just in e com.

Ryan Garrow: There’s more money. Yeah,

Jon MacDonald: yeah.

Ryan Garrow: You can pay those influencers more.

Jon MacDonald: This is where the whole cottage industry now of LinkedIn influencers, right? They’re all going on there and getting paid quite a bit by B2B companies to, to influence around their products.

Ryan Garrow: Yeah. No, I agree. I think it’s definitely valuable there. We’ve gotten through 11 and the punchline feels that designing a SaaS website is about more than just making it look pretty. Yeah. And have high contrasting covers.

Jon MacDonald: A hundred percent, right? How did you know that was coming? Because the reality is it’s very similar to what I’ve talked about with e comm and I think the play here is a lot more similar than not.

The fundamentals don’t change. Your visual appeal of your website, it’s important, but it’s important to remember that websites are made to be used, and that goes for e com or [00:25:00] SaaS. SaaS website design is about creating a user experience that clicks with your target audience. See what I did there.

But there’s this wireframe in design should be validated with real feedback before you launch anything and test it with your ideal audience before you start building. Why waste the money? Your development team has better things to do inside the app. I promise you that’s where they want to focus.

And if you validate everything, you say, Hey this has already been proven out. We’ve already refined and iterated. Now I just need you to build this version. I promise you the relationship with your development team. Between marketing and development is going to be that much better and I hear this all the time from product design and product development folks.

If you are a product manager design development, you often have a rift between you and internal implementation teams, the technical teams that are actually building something because They are getting pulled in so many different directions and marketing is [00:26:00] unfortunately not usually a priority for them.

They’re solving bugs, looking to retain customers, add new functionality. So you really need to be able to speak to them appropriately.

Ryan Garrow: I love it. That was helpful for sure. I think we’re all going to be doing a lot more SaaS marketing and growing of those brands in the near future. I’m excited for it.

Jon MacDonald: It is where it’s headed for sure, especially as I mentioned earlier with AI being able to build SaaS apps. You’re going to see a lot of these. Small creator sites popping up the time and again, so

Ryan Garrow: Excited. Thanks, Jon. I appreciate the insights.

Jon MacDonald: Yeah, thanks for hanging with me today through my head cold.

Appreciate it.

Ryan Garrow: Anytime.

Announcer: Thanks for listening to Drive and Convert with Jon MacDonald and Ryan Garrow. To keep up to date with new episodes, you can subscribe at driveandconvert com.

The post Drive and Convert (Ep. 124): The Fundamentals of SaaS Marketing Website Design appeared first on The Good.

New channels let you tap into additional audiences and volume, spurring growth and helping your business through harder times. After all, there’s a reason our parents always told us not to keep all of our eggs in one basket.

We’re big fans of an omnichannel approach, so we talked to a group of experts on the topic to get their thoughts on why and how to navigate it like a pro.

• Sam Selby, Co-founder, COO & President at Used Mobile Homes USA
• Myra Ryder — Director of Brand Strategy at Ka’Chava
• Dustin Kochis — VP of Retail Strategy and Sales, Ka’Chava
• Andy Wang — Managing Partner & CGO, KC HiLiTES

The case for DTC

For many retail products, adding a DTC channel is a surefire way to increase margins and grow your business.

However, adding a DTC channel isn’t just a way to grow revenue and margin. The upsides also include better relationships with your customers and greater insights to help you grow your brand.

Build stronger relationships with your customers

Dustin Kochis, VP of Sales at Ka’Chava, sees DTC as a powerful tool for connecting with customers. “We view DTC as a way to build stronger relationships with our customers. It’s allowed us to educate them on our mission and products in ways that retail can’t.”

Building these relationships via DTC is an approach that even legacy brands can leverage. Take Andy Wang of KC HiLiTES: when Wang acquired the decades-old company, he knew he wanted to take them digital. But it wasn’t just the margins he was after.

Wang had a vision for a new brand identity that he wasn’t satisfied to leave in the hands of retail partners to represent. To emphasize the brand’s quality and heritage, he built an image-driven website that not only sells products but tells the brand story better than retail alone could.

“We went direct to consumer not only because of the revenue and margin, but because it gives us the ability to control our own destiny. If you can build a quality relationship with your customer, that becomes a moat for your business.”

Own your data

While the benefits of DTC on education and relationships are laudable, there’s a notable third-order benefit of having an ecommerce channel that is arguably just as important: owning your data.

“Having a direct customer channel is everything because it allows you to learn about your customers,” says Sam Selby, Co-founder, COO & President at Used Mobile Homes USA.

Wang agrees. “People are too fixated on margin and revenue. There’s a treasure chest of information when users touch your website or interact with your content.”

Once Wang built his DTC arm, the benefits of owned data began to fuel his business in new ways.

“When we went direct to consumer, we got all of the emails and the psychographic details. It’s a huge help in understanding who your customers are. When you go through distribution, that gets lost,” Wang told us. “That’s another really important thing that has become an asset. Using emails, analytics, and attribution models, that is where the gold is.”

The use cases for good data go both ways. When Myra Ryder, Director of Brand Strategy at Ka’Chava, brought on a new VP of sales to help them go into retail, the existing data from DTC channels was critical in helping them to form a go-to-market strategy. “You really need the data,” says Ryder.

7 tips for thoughtfully entering DTC

If you’re sold on its benefits, the next logical step is to do some digging into how to make the transition from retail to DTC painless. Here are seven tips from the experts to help you make it as smooth as possible.

1. Define your DTC value proposition

Launching a DTC channel isn’t just about making your products available. It’s about understanding what unique value you’ll offer customers through this new channel.

According to Selby, to succeed, you need to articulate why someone should buy directly from you versus through retail. “You have to figure out what your unique value is because you’re not going to out-Amazon Amazon, and you’re not going to out-Target Target.”

2. Align your DTC and retail strategies

One common concern for retail-driven brands is how a DTC channel might impact existing retail partnerships.

Dustin Kochis, VP of Retail Strategy and Sales at Ka’Chava, emphasizes the importance of alignment. “Your DTC and retail strategies should complement each other, not compete. We’ve found success by ensuring that our retail presence reinforces the brand while DTC drives education and deeper customer engagement.”

For example, offering exclusive products or bundles online can differentiate your DTC channel without undercutting retail partners on price.

Selby shares, “To capture incremental customers without cannibalizing between channels, make sure you’re not just duplicating what your retail partners already offer.”

3. Establish a clear DTC marketing plan

Most business leaders already know the value of a marketing plan, but when opening a new channel, it becomes even more important.

Myra and Dustin from Ka’Chava say, “Whether it’s through partnerships, Instagram, or other ad campaigns, often there’s a familiarity with the brand once the consumer sees the product in-store. Leverage those educational, top-of-funnel touchpoints to stay ahead and top of mind.”

KC HiLiTES beefed up its digital marketing plans to generate a fast margin when it launched DTC. “We used a series of growth hacks to generate that margin. Then we had money to dump into marketing and could control the brand perception at scale,” said Andy.

4. Know what value your retail partners bring

Selby emphasized the importance of knowing the value of retail partners, measuring their value, and finding ways to optimize the channel so you can make the most of the DTC transition. “You really need to understand how retail is different because that will help you take advantage of DTC most effectively.”

Wang finds insight in the pricing models of retail partners. “If the price is the same anywhere you can find it on the web, at the end of the day, that distributor or dealer has to add some value beyond price. If your brand is powerful enough, it makes it so that that dealer has to add some strategic value.” That could come in extra exposure, a new customer base, or strategic learnings from their other partnerships.

“We only work with the partners that add value to our company as a whole,” finished Andy.

5. Invest in expertise

To thrive in DTC, your website needs to offer a seamless and engaging experience. Myra Ryder, Director of Brand Strategy at Ka’Chava, highlights the role of storytelling and user-centric design; “Customers expect more than just a product listing online. They want an experience that reflects your brand’s story and values. Your website should inspire trust, simplify the buying process, and communicate your unique benefits.”

She adds, “You need to find specialists and give it 110%… don’t divert people and time from other teams.” For Myra, that meant partnering with specialists like Dustin to own retail entry and The Good to optimize their DTC website.

6. Prepare for omnichannel success

Moving to an omnichannel approach comes with logistical and operational complexities. Andy Wang advises brands to prepare for changes in demand and fulfillment.

“When you add a DTC channel, you’re not just adding revenue—you’re adding complexity. From inventory management to customer service, everything needs to scale to meet new demands.”

This can include integrating inventory systems, ensuring consistent pricing, and aligning marketing efforts across channels.

And while channel conflict can set you back, there are plenty of ways to combat it. Even tweaks to the actual product can make your omnichannel strategy more successful. When Ka’Chava entered into retail, for example, they changed the packaging to reflect what DTC customers learned about via the website and shrunk down the retail package to land at a price point that was more palatable for new customers.

7. Don’t fret cannibalization

Kochis says there is “no magic formula” for predicting how a new channel will impact another channel’s sales, and the endeavor is short-sighted anyway.

When brought on to help Ka’Chava enter retail, he warned the team about the possibility of seeing an initial dip in ecommerce sales, but he said not to worry. “It’s a long play,” says Kochis.

Unlock a DTC strategy like the experts

Launching DTC is not a set-it-and-forget-it endeavor. As we established, data is your biggest ally in DTC. Track everything—from website traffic and conversion rates to customer feedback. Use these insights to continually refine your approach.

Expanding into DTC can unlock new opportunities for growth and customer engagement, but it requires careful planning and execution. By defining your value proposition, aligning with retail strategies, optimizing the digital experience, and adapting to omnichannel demands, you can set your brand up for success.

Ready to take the leap? We have many resources on DTC ecommerce from 15+ years of optimizing for brands like yours. Check them out here.

The post 7 Expert Tips On How Retail Brands Can Launch A DTC Ecommerce Channel appeared first on The Good.

About This Episode:

2024 was the year social ads made a serious comeback, and the focus on social selling will continue into 2025. In this episode, Jon and Ryan discuss how YouTube is poised to impact the marketing stack in 2025.

Check out the full episode to learn:

1. Why YouTube’s roster of influencers and the YouTube Shopping program are attracting media spend.
2. The four unique ways YouTube can track attribution.
3. How brands should get started with YouTube in 2025.

If you have questions, ideas, or feedback to share, connect with us on LinkedIn. We’re Jon MacDonald and Ryan Garrow.

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Episode Transcript:

Announcer: [00:00:00] You’re listening to Drive and Convert, a podcast about helping online brands to build a better e commerce growth engine with Jon MacDonald and Ryan Garrow.

Jon MacDonald: Ryan, clients are starting to plan for 2025. We’re seeing it across our client base. I’m sure you guys are as well. 24 seemed like a big focus in social selling. TikTok shop is something I continuously hear about now. And I know there’s others that kind of have blown up for selling online this past year.

A lot of that’s been happening for a handful of years, but it really seemed to take off this year. So I know you want to talk about this. I’d love to get your thoughts on it. So it seemed like a good topic for today. What do you think?

Ryan Garrow: I agree. It’s, I have mixed feelings on TikTok. I’m not on there because I’m, I just don’t have time.

I’m maybe too old to get new tricks going. All of our clients, it does feel like everybody had to have some insights or [00:01:00] questions around TikTok. Do I do it now? When do I do it? I have to be involved. What does it look like? Then on the other side, I hear a lot of people burned out from TikTok shop and influencers doing nothing but peddling products and pushing it.

TikTok may have gone too far. They’re really in tight with Amazon. And there’s a lot of stuff on there from trying to sell products and which is fine. Influencers have to make some money, but we saw a big decrease in social ads through the pandemic because of the Apple iOS issues in 21 and changing tracking for all of us.

Which was painful for somebody that’s been doing the same thing for a long time. For me, it feels there’s even ancillary data around that, but social ads really did make a comeback in 24 meta stock price alone would be proof that social ads are doing fairly well. It’s gone bonkers.

And so I think that everybody here’s aware of social, I don’t have to talk about, why you need to be involved in social ads or Just a presence on social media. What I think is missing [00:02:00] is a good discussion around that other social platform out there called YouTube.

Jon MacDonald: Oh, the other, huh? I would have said the main one was the first.

Not the first, but it is a big dog for sure.

Ryan Garrow: Yeah. Google had their little foray into what’s called, what was it? Google plus, or that they tried to have, what did they call that? Yeah.

Jon MacDonald: Was a mess. Yeah, that

Ryan Garrow: was, I was one of the, I had one of the first ones and I thought it was going to be great.

And then they, it was terrible. But historically YouTube is not really fit into the Bucket of social marketing. I’ll say that it wasn’t necessarily social. People have comments on it, but it’s not like there’s a lot of two way interaction. At least that I see, it’s like you’re posting to be seen, but not get feedback really.

Or yeah, it’s not like LinkedIn

Jon MacDonald: where it’s a conversation every post.

Ryan Garrow: There’s a conversation or I follow my friends on YouTube so I can remember people from high school or my family. Wait, that used to be

Jon MacDonald: Facebook. Wasn’t that what Facebook was for?

Ryan Garrow: Yeah. And so it’s [00:03:00] now it’s I don’t know what Facebook’s for now.

My mom’s on it and there’s a lot of politics essentially, which is why I don’t get on there anymore. Yep. Yep. But YouTube wasn’t really doing that. It was like you would go there, I think, to be entertained or follow somebody who created content that you liked. And so I think Tik TOK had an impact on that to a degree, but there weren’t people going there to maybe get influenced to purchase.

It was, my dad uses YouTube a lot to fix stuff and I do as well. If I need to solve a problem in my house, cause I’m not a fix it person. I’m like, I don’t know. How do I change? Every time, man, this is funny. I just did this last week. My wife’s expedition. She’s the back windshield wiper needs to be replaced.

I’m like, okay, great. I think I’ll figure out and get the wiper. And I’m like, I get back in the truck. I’m like, I gotta, you gotta Google the same video. I think every single time. Replace the windshield wiper on the back of the expedition. That’s what I use YouTube for having worked with Google for 15 years now.

I’ve seen them try so many different ways of selling my clients on. They need to get on spending on YouTube. Like it’s [00:04:00] every year. It seems to be like, this is the year, Gerald, you’ve got YouTube. They’re missing out and for 15 years, they’ve not spent on YouTube and they’ve not missed out with a few exceptions like our team does really good stuff on YouTube.

We’ve won awards two years in a row for our work on YouTube, so there is some really good things happening there, but it just hasn’t felt like it got critical mass to really be like everybody needs to be on YouTube and everybody’s knows it and they’re asking us questions about it and just saying, Hey, what do I need to do?

How do I scale YouTube? I think 25 is going to be that year. I just

Jon MacDonald: so this is the year Google got to you

Ryan Garrow: if I’m making a prediction now in 24. Yeah, this is the year that I’m going to listen to Google. And I’m going to be like, Yes, we are doing it is we are going to get people spending on YouTube because it’s going to have an impact.

Jon MacDonald: Okay, so you’re saying that my teams are going to actually be looking at landing pages this next year, and we’re going to have to optimize them for YouTube traffic. That’s what I’m hearing.

Ryan Garrow: I’ll say this. I’m not going to stand on a battleship and say [00:05:00] the battles one and everything. YouTube is success.

But what I am saying is I finally believe YouTube has a compelling reason to be looked at much deeper. And I’m betting some of my own time and money on the fact that it’s going to work. It’s rare that I would do that with a Google property that I haven’t seen a lot of traction at scale. There’s, Blenjet did some amazing things with our team and grew their brand really well there.

There have been wins, but I think it’s going to be a lot of wins in 2025.

Jon MacDonald: Interesting. I’ve always looked at YouTube as the second largest search engine. So under that kind of line of thinking, it would make a lot of sense to be there. So why is this time different? What’s different for you?

Ryan Garrow: Yeah. So I think that I agree, second largest search engine, if you looked at it that way, which is always how they put set it, but it’s like Google has, you What 95 percent of the search volume in the US and being has 30 percent so like beating being wasn’t exactly this great amazing thing, but YouTube as a search [00:06:00] engine is interesting because yes, I search YouTube, but I’m searching for a video to explain something or to entertain me, not like I’m going to say what’s the best.

Headphones. Maybe there is a YouTube video, but that’s going to happen on Google. And then they’re going to drive me to YouTube to watch a video if I don’t want to read it. And for my personality, I like reading rather than watching or listening because I can do it quicker

Jon MacDonald: but unless you’re changing a wiper.

Ryan Garrow: Unless I’m changing a wiper, then I already know I’ve got to have somebody show me how to do it or even change you. It’s always cars for me cause I’m not a car guy. I enjoy cars, but I don’t work on them. And so even changing the battery in my remote, I’m like, I forget how to change it again.

And I’ve got to figure out how to get into it.

Jon MacDonald: I had to do that for my Audi remote. And I will tell you, it was a pain in the butt to get the battery out. And I’m glad I had a video show me how let’s do that. I would have broke the key 100 percent

Ryan Garrow: me too. Like every time and I’m like, at some point, I probably should be like, it’s worth 300 for a new remote.

We’re going to trash it. The battery’s dead. It’s not worth it. Historically on YouTube. [00:07:00] We’ve really had one way to measure. And that was through a brand list study. And if you can only get that if you spent seven grand a month or more. And so most of the scale on YouTube was large brands that could say, Hey, you, Google’s going to do this cool study for us.

And we’re going to be able to use that and say it worked and obviously not perfect, but functional, but it’s also. Like going to the IRS and saying, Hey, did I do my taxes? They’re like how much did you pay us? Oh, you paid us enough. Therefore you did it. And so it’s always been a struggle when it comes to YouTube, because you had to do it outside of what we normally looked at as a source of truth, where I can’t just go To analytics and see what it is now meta has a different side of that where there’s been They are able to tell us whatever they want And it’s always different than google analytics or what we’ve seen in the past as our social truth for some reason As advertisers, we’re always like that’s all right Okay So I think they broke the that glass ceiling to a degree for youtube to say It’s okay if we’re showing numbers that are different as long as it’s true We’re seeing the growth.

It can’t be like [00:08:00] meta is saying they drove a million dollars in sales last month when the site only did 20, 000. Okay that’s obviously not working.

Jon MacDonald: I think I hear about that all the time. And as marketers, we have a hundred percent been conditioned, if you will, to the fact that data is never going to be the same across platforms and you’ve got to have that single source of truth.

And I think that’s why we’re just okay with. Like each platform being wrong because you don’t know which one’s right. So you just assume, you know what? They’re all biased and they’re all wrong. We will find what that, what go in the corner and do your numbers. I’ll do what I need to do and we’ll just work with it.

That’s pretty much the attitude, unfortunately.

Ryan Garrow: Yeah. And the problem YouTube had in that world is it’s being run in a Google ads account with like next to a campaign where you’re trusting. That data in Google ads and Google analytics matching up and Oh, I get it. Yep. Here’s what they’re saying then you’ve got this YouTube campaign.

That’s like what the heck is this? It doesn’t not even close to matching up or making sense based on what we’re looking at from a Shopping or text [00:09:00] ad standpoint because the intense a little different on those and so lots of issues from tracking My wife even brought this up to me. She’s think about YouTube like our kids have our YouTube login like yeah You Why not?

She’s I have yet to give our 11 year old my Instagram login. Oh good point when it’s on Instagram or meta, they know exactly whose eyeballs they’re looking at. Yeah. When it comes to YouTube, we have YouTube TV. We have YouTube like for video game solving problems. Like my son needs to figure out how to build something on Minecraft.

Guess where he goes? I can’t answer the questions. I’m like, I don’t know. I’ll just YouTube that and figure out somebody else has done it. Change is coming, which I’m excited about. They’re bringing in shopping feeds, which is exciting because it’s putting it more into the flow of okay TikTok has shopping feeds.

Meta has shopping feeds. Everybody has shopping feeds of YouTube. Hasn’t really leaned as much into the shopping feed and now they’ve got some cool stuff coming up with that. And so I think that we’re really going to start seeing the e com brands lean in a lot more because of it’s going to feel and work a lot more similarly to [00:10:00] what they’re used to on meta and tick tock.

Jon MacDonald: Are you saying that Google had to come up with its own YouTube specific tracking?

Ryan Garrow: Pretty much Google’s realized that I think in 24 that. All right we can’t beat them, join them, let’s understand how we get meta advertisers because that’s the same place they want to play in from a social standpoint

Jon MacDonald: okay

Ryan Garrow: see YouTube in the same way.

So if so, we’ve got to learn how to track it the same, but also in Google’s, we got to be different because we’ve got to somehow be able to show we’re better and get that. So YouTube now has four different things, I say for tracking, which. Again, makes it somewhat complex, but we’re getting a lot of really cool points that tell a story.

I say you’ve got to use multiple different data points and our team’s going to talk about, you’re going to need to have some to help measure the impact and say, Hey, when we do this, what else happens and using all four of these things together, it should create a much cooler picture than just saying.

[00:11:00] Spend a million on meta and they 3 million and analytics says half a million. We’re going to meet somewhere in the middle. Two of the YouTube more things that are currently in process are in closed beta. So I can’t get into the super details on that from

Jon MacDonald: okay

Ryan Garrow: summary standpoint. They’re going to give you the geographic impact of ads and just think a way to scale blackout tests without having to do it manually.

Interesting. And it’s show ads in Seattle, but not in San Francisco and then see what happens as far as sales to the site. And then they have three different lifts that they do. Conversion lift, brand lift, search lift. And generally speaking right now, those are for larger advertisers because you need volume of conversions to really see it.

You can’t be doing, 50 conversions on the site. Okay. Go spend on YouTube and see the impact through their measurement. I think there’s going to be ways that we take a lot of those enterprise strategies in 25 and boil them down to somebody that only wants to spend or can only spend a thousand or 1500 on YouTube to be able to say, great, we’ll black out, or we’ll only run it in one market to see, what’s going [00:12:00] on.

What is that having an impact on and then we can run some of these tests individually in each account to make it work for that merchant.

Jon MacDonald: Interesting. So with all this stuff, YouTube’s coming out with, you’re able to prove the ROI a little better. It sounds do some testing with the data. Do you think that’s going to pull money and budget away from meta and tick tock?

Ryan Garrow: I doubt it. I think those platforms have done a good job in 2324 of showing what they can do. And they’re probably going to get more spend this year. If anything, my guess is it’s going to pull more from television buys and display buys from large advertisers. So if you’ve got a, 2 million a month display budget, it’s probably going to make sense to lower that half a million to a million and throw that on YouTube if you haven’t been there yet.

And I think if you’re a smaller advertiser, I’ll say six figures or under a hundred thousand or less. I see. You’re probably going to be seeing YouTube as the logical flow up the funnel. Like you’re covered a lot of your Google search and shopping. [00:13:00] Now it’s going to make sense. How do we get to that next layer?

That mid funnel, that’s going to have an impact and that’s going to be some in meta, but it’s probably going to be some in YouTube as well.

Announcer: You’re listening to Drive and Convert, a podcast focused on e commerce growth. Your hosts are Jon MacDonald, founder of The Good, a conversion rate optimization agency that works with e commerce brands to help convert more of their visitors into buyers. And Ryan Garrow of Logical Position, a digital marketing agency offering pay-per-click management, search engine optimization, and website design services to brands of all sizes. If you find this podcast helpful, please help us out by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts and sharing it with a friend or colleague. Thank you.

Ryan Garrow: What I found interesting, we had this big event in Boston. It’s one of their Google office by MIT. We had some of the top YouTube talent inside of Google come and talk to us. Some of the numbers are fascinating in explaining how under invested in YouTube it is. [00:14:00] Facebook had, I want to say 130, 31 million or so advertising revenue in 23.

YouTube, I think, had 30, 32, somewhere in that space. So roughly 25 percent or just under 25 percent of Meta’s ads was YouTube and YouTube actually had just a super small fraction less time on the platform than Facebook did include Instagram and WhatsApp in there too, but it shows the Delta in investment in YouTube from an ad standpoint.

Is dramatically less as a percentage of available inventory than meta has, and so it should be cheaper and have more scale.

Jon MacDonald: Do you think that’s, to me, the way that was, I’m hearing this and correct me if I’m wrong, though, is that is Google cannibalizing their own ad spending. Cause you had mentioned like people pulling from display and maybe even search into YouTube, that would be mostly Google just moving their budget over to YouTube, which as an end user, it seems like it [00:15:00] makes sense to me because they’re rolling out the AI answers is not a lot of clicks happening on ads.

Inside Google these days, at least for me, I haven’t, I don’t remember last time I got past the AI answers because they’re actually getting pretty good. None of them have told me to eat something that’s going to make me sick or anything like that, which was like the early answers we’re doing.

I remember some of those examples, but I do think there’s good opportunity for them to move that budget. People were already spending with Google to other channels and I can’t help but wonder if that’s part of the play here.

Ryan Garrow: Google’s hoping, I’m sure, that they keep search and shopping there, and then YouTube would be the next layer up, that mid funnel that would help feed some of that down the funnel.

So it’s like when I talk to a meta advertiser yes, you should be spending some money on meta, but if you haven’t covered the searches on Google at the bottom of the funnel, you’re likely investing some money in meta to your competitors. And so make sure the [00:16:00] bottom is solid, that you know you’ve got it covered, then move up a layer.

I think too often, especially smaller CPG brands, I see this a lot, where they really just want to be like I heard this brand did really well. Like Nick Sharma had a brand that spends 2 million a month on social, so I should do that. I’m like, what? Probably, but maybe let’s take some steps to get there and build something.

Cause they don’t hear about some of that kind of nitty gritty yeah, you do have to cover it. And the best social brands really do have a solid bottom of funnel. If you search their brand on Google, you’re going to see a almost monopoly on the shopping ads. You’re going to see a well built text ad, usually taking up real estate to keep the competitors off of that space.

Cause they will be there and they should.

Jon MacDonald: Interesting. Yeah. So that’s fair. You’re not going to. As a brand, you’re not going to move on from it. You might just not iterate as much or invest as heavily, but that definitely makes sense. You don’t want to give up ground. So to date, when we’re recording this episode, there’s a big boxing match coming up.

I believe that’s tonight or very soon with [00:17:00] Jake Paul and Mike Tyson, which is going to be amazing to watch. I can’t wait to see it. Yeah,

Ryan Garrow: I, me too. I’m excited. I’ve been excited about a boxing match for probably 15 years, maybe 20 years.

Jon MacDonald: we could probably do a whole episode just on this because I really only see this going one of two ways and a older gentleman is going to get the legacy knocked out of him or a young person is going to get seriously hurt. It’s going to be one of the two. Yeah. There’s this not and that’s why this is going to be entertaining. It’s not for the boxing itself. I’m not worried about the skill here. This is just a rough match, but

Ryan Garrow: no,

Jon MacDonald: I am thinking about how Jake Paul got here. And I’m thinking about how there’s been so many influencers, especially in YouTube.

And not that much on products. So I’m wondering what the play is for YouTube with products.

Ryan Garrow: It’s true. YouTube, the biggest influencers in the world are generally [00:18:00] got their start on YouTube. If we look at Mr. Beast, like the billionaire influencer started by posting YouTube videos over a decade ago.

Same thing with Jake Paul. Like it was pranks and stuff and about, getting information on YouTube and people following there, that’s where they made their money and their impact and those same influencers. I think there was a crazy stat when Tik TOK released their creator fund in, I want to say 21, 22, Mr. Beast was massive in 21, 22, just like he is now, I think in 10 months, he made something like. 14, 000 despite having yeah, almost a billion views. And then while YouTube is paying him disgusting millions of dollars from an influencer standpoint, just creating good content. YouTube has generally been way ahead of the game.

When it came to we’re going to get people to watch and be entertained and have eyeballs here. But what they haven’t necessarily done is say, how do we bring products into that? Whereas TikTok and Meta, it was really simple. Yeah, there’s a feed. And [00:19:00] so you’re going to ship this influence or a product and they’re going to talk about it on TikTok and people are going to buy. Like it was pretty stupidly simple, actually. And TikTok and Meta didn’t have to pay their influencers really. Whereas YouTube didn’t have that. So it was always like, Hey, we got to pay for this content. Looking at it almost like Netflix buying movies or having their own creative thing.

If they’re going to pay for that, it costs them money and then people pay to be there. YouTube’s advertising funneled it. And so all that to say YouTube. Adding product feeds for creators to tag products and enter more into that, what we expect to see on social now, like I, it doesn’t bug me when I’m scrolling through a feed now to see somebody talking about a product or being pitched a product. And so I think in YouTube shorts now, their competitor to reels and TikTok.

Jon MacDonald: Yeah,

Ryan Garrow: I think people are going to be just used to seeing products. And if the targeting is done right, which if you’ve got a good advertising agency, hello, come talk to me. It should drive some decent traffic and [00:20:00] conversions because it’s now set up to handle that.

Yeah. It’s cool. Cause it’s cool in beta. So there’s not a lot of details I can share publicly, but there’s ways now for brands to go in and from an affiliate standpoint, incentivize these creators to talk about you. And there’s a discovery thing in there. For both creators and brands. I think this is going to be big.

I do. And brands can bring the creators in. So if you’ve got a decent amount of creators on Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, you should be able to move a lot of those in to the YouTube environment. And there’s going to be some incentive for those creators to come make sure they’re creating content for YouTube.

And so we’ve got some larger brands are going to be hopefully moving their creators into the system that we’ll be able to hopefully maybe towards the end of Q1, I’ll have some really cool data to share that’ll be like, Hey, I’m Here’s the actual numbers that I talked about, at the end of 24 that are now going to be real and tangible.

Jon MacDonald: Okay. I’m convinced our listeners are convinced. How should they get started with YouTube in 25? Because that sounds to me like that’s going to change. Based on what they have been [00:21:00] doing.

Ryan Garrow: Yeah, I think that kind of scrap what you used to think about YouTube. I think it started Hey, if pretend it’s a brand new social platform, then you’re like, all right, everybody’s moving there.

Let’s get excited. Let’s participate. You, every brand will be different. I’ll say that you’re going to have to establish it what makes sense for your brand because it’s probably going to be different than your next door neighbor’s brand, but you have to have a YouTube channel. You have to have, that’s just base practice.

If you don’t have it already, go get your YouTube channel claimed, get it designed, right? Have a plan for creating content. It’s what I talked about in Tik Tok, I don’t know, a couple of years ago, when we saw some really good success from some of our brands, you had to have a voice on there to participate.

You couldn’t just run ads on TikTok without actually putting some of your own content out there and being a part of the community. It was, it created a feeling of inauthenticity. Like you were just weren’t, you were there just with your money, not. to participate. I don’t think that’s as important on YouTube because of how ads run and it’s because you can run pre roll on your competitor’s sites if they haven’t [00:22:00] blocked or your competitor pages if they haven’t blocked it.

I just want to have a landing page that people can research you and make sure that you’re a legitimate brand more than anything else. So you don’t have to probably regularly create content. I think it’s a benefit if you do, but just at least have a presence there controlled. That’s you. And then for most advertisers, I’m going to say, you’re probably going to create a separate Google account for YouTube.

Not all the time, but for most of you out there, separate accounts going to make sense. Cause it keeps your tracking cleaner. Cause what happens is if you have YouTube as a separate campaign and where you’re running shopping and search and all the other various things you can run in Google, you will have, we’ll call credit stealing, where they’re going to have multiple touch points.

And Google’s data driven algorithm is going to say that hit shopping there and it hit a text ad here. And then YouTube was here. So it’s going to get 10 percent of the credit. It’s going to be more difficult to see the full impact. So the similar, the way you would have your meta account is separate from Google.

They’re both claiming credit for some of the same sales. And you realize that as an [00:23:00] advertiser, look at YouTube as a social channel, be able to be comfortable with it, measuring the full impact and then deleting credit where you see fit. But you’re going to be able to see a better holistic picture of.

What is it actually doing? All of our larger advertisers have separate accounts. When you’re doing some of the cool studies with Google, it’s helpful to have a separate account. Again, when you come to shopping feeds, I get this question. So I’ll address it now that you can have two Google ads accounts targeting the same website, one with YouTube, one with all the shopping and also connected to one merchant center.

Jon MacDonald: Okay.

Ryan Garrow: So you got one merchant center running all of your product feeds. And you can have that going to two, two separate Google ads accounts.

Jon MacDonald: Interesting. Yeah. I would have thought that wasn’t possible, but what do I know? Yeah. Interesting.

Ryan Garrow: And then I’ll say you’re going to have to go out and have a goal for it.

That makes sense. What is it? What is, what do I need YouTube to do? Look at some of the data and then make adjustments to either how you’re looking at it, if it’s not performing that way, not to say you have to justify it, but say, Hey, we expected it to do this, but in reality it’s doing. [00:24:00] This down here and maybe we just need to accept that and say hey, how is that benefiting the brand?

Let’s still continue to scale it But know that it’s accomplishing a goal slightly different than what we wanted it to be and keep testing You know, you’re gonna have the audiences can be again super creepy and awesome from a marketing standpoint like meta I would say you can’t give up on it that’s been one of the things you have to have a really hard head because It’s not gonna for most of you listening.

It’s not out of the gate going to be boom We spent 50 grand on youtube and our business grew half a million dollars that month. That was amazing Hopefully that happens but understand that it’s not and it’s going to be a commitment to making it work Just like for most of you meta wasn’t perfect out of the gate and it was a commitment to saying, okay I have to make this work, the eyeballs are there, I want to get first mover advantage over my competitors.

So we are going to make this work. Let’s keep trying, keep iterating, test the content, test the landing pages, test the algorithm, test all the things that can go into making the system work just like [00:25:00] you would if you were iterating on Meta.

Jon MacDonald: Awesome. So 2025 is the year of YouTube, I’m hearing. And.

Ryan Garrow: It’s as of now,

Jon MacDonald: as of now, Ryan is convinced subject to change on what actually happens

Ryan Garrow: always

Jon MacDonald: what he finds, but I think it’s really interesting. I would not have guessed that you would have come here today and say that. So

Ryan Garrow: two months ago, I probably wouldn’t have thought that either.

Jon MacDonald: Yeah, I do think there is a lot of opportunities still out there and all this stuff goes in cycles. I remember years ago, they’re talking about adding clickable shoppable moments into YouTube videos with overlays, et cetera, to highlight products and be able to clip one click to a page to buy it.

And that never really came to fruition. Now they’re like, you know what, we need to do this because everyone else is doing it and it’s coming back around. But at the same time, e commerce especially has been really hurting this past year for some time now. And I think they’re all looking for this new place to shift their marketing [00:26:00] dollars to some degree that’s going to get them back to where they were.

And for no other reason, I think there’ll be some more investment in YouTube just to try something else, right? And see if they can be the first mover to take advantage of it and ride that wave. So this is really interesting. I appreciate you sharing that today.

Ryan Garrow: Yeah. Thanks for the time, Jon. Let me stand on my soapbox.

Jon MacDonald: All right. Thank you, Ryan.

Ryan Garrow: Thank you.

Announcer: Thanks for listening to Drive and Convert with Jon MacDonald and Ryan Garrow. To keep up to date with new episodes, you can subscribe at driveandconvert.com.

The post Drive and Convert (Ep. 123): New Year, New Marketing appeared first on The Good.

But have you thought about how you might leverage your current user base to increase product relevance and reach?

This can be a low-cost, high-impact way to improve product quality, re-engage dormant users, or get in front of some new eyeballs.

It’s hugely beneficial to both your tool and the users by creating positive network effects. The more people that use your product, the more valuable it becomes. It’s a self-propelling mechanism to drive growth.

What is a positive network effect?

A positive network effect is when the value of a SaaS tool increases as the user base grows.

Take LinkedIn, for example. It becomes more valuable for users if their peers, colleagues, and dream employers use the tool. You can make more connections, learn more from the user-generated content, hunt for more jobs, and generally get more out of the tool.

For SaaS companies, larger networks can lead to several competitive advantages, such as:

• Are more trustworthy
• Entice advertisers
• Encourage referrals and word-of-mouth
• Build more unique user-generated content that can’t be copied by competition
• Increase retention

Understanding network effects is only the first step. The real challenge lies in building strategies that activate and sustain these effects. Creating positive network effects typically starts by leveraging your current user base, so let’s explore five proven ways to mobilize your users for growth.

5 ways to mobilize your user base to drive growth

Products like Pinterest, SurveyMonkey, or LinkedIn use network effects to grow. Each new user or engagement encourages more new users or engagements.

Tools target different objectives with their efforts. Some might prioritize user acquisition, while others reinforce retention, monetization, or product quality.

The most effective SaaS companies often find a couple of different ways to leverage current users as part of their growth strategy. Here are some examples to inspire your efforts.

1. Increase reach with shareable features

One way to leverage your current users’ network is to build product features that encourage natural sharing and engagement. To maximize reach, they need to be easy to use, helpful, and solve a real problem for users.

Pinterest allows users to create shared ‘boards’ to collaborate on home decor, event planning, and more. This either re-engages current users or prompts new sign-ups by sharing their board with both current and new users.

Here’s how it works:

1. A current user returns to Pinterest, ready to explore new content.
2. The user creates a ‘board’ to collect commonly themed content in support of a goal (redecorating their home, brainstorming for a trip, planning an event).
3. The user saves, pins, or repins content to their board.
4. The user shares the board with a collaborator (decorator, travel partner, event planner, etc) either directly on Pinterest or via a messaging tool.
5. The collaborator is either re-engaged or prompted to sign up for an account to collaborate on the board.
6. If the board is public, other users can stumble upon a piece of content and pin to their own boards.

Another example is Calendly, which builds natural sharing into the user journey. They incorporate simple scheduling and the speed of using invitation links. It’s also brilliant in that you don’t need an account to add yourself to a user’s schedule.

Here’s how Calendly includes shareable features to increase reach:

1. A Calendly user sends an invitation link to book a meeting. The invitee can select a time without the usual back-and-forth emails.
2. The invitee schedules a meeting without the typical friction of the scheduling process.
3. If an invitee schedules a lot of meetings themselves, they’re likely to sign up for Calendly to streamline their own scheduling.
4. As new users share Calendly links, more people experience the simplicity, driving additional sign-ups.

2. Drive referrals with growth loops

While shareable features focus on increasing reach, growth loops create a self-reinforcing cycle of engagement and referrals.

Think of a growth loop framework like a flywheel: Once it’s moving, it picks up speed and sustains momentum. For example, a user finds your product, interacts meaningfully, and creates content or engages in a way that attracts other users who repeat this cycle.

The goal here is to maximize viral reach without high acquisition costs. For a viral loop to succeed, the incentive needs to resonate with the users and align naturally with the product.

DocuSign’s growth loop leverages the need for digital document signing. Every document sent for a signature serves as an introduction to the platform.

Here’s how it works:

1. A user uploads a document to DocuSign and sends it to recipients for signature.
2. Recipients receive an email with a link to the document. They review and sign without needing an account. This helps them experience the platform’s convenience.
3. Impressed, recipients often sign up for their own accounts to send and manage their own documents, especially if they frequently need to get things signed.
4. As new users send their own documents for signatures, they introduce even more users to the platform. Each document sent by a new user brings in additional recipients.

3. Improve product quality and engagement with user-generated content

In addition to growth loops, user-generated content can amplify engagement and improve product quality by turning users into contributors.

Content engagement relies on user-generated or brand-created content to attract and retain users. This thrives when content shared or created by users on the platform is accessible to non-users. New visitors become intrigued and decide to join or engage.

GitHub, for example, leverages network effects to improve product quality. The collaborative coding and open-source project visibility encourage the use of their tool. Developers join to contribute to existing projects and then end up hosting their own projects.

Here’s how Github’s engagement of their customer network works to improve product quality:

1. Developers upload projects or contribute to open-source repositories.
2. Other developers discover these projects and contribute code, fix bugs, or fork the project for personal use. Each interaction boosts the project’s visibility on GitHub.
3. Developers who were attracted by the collaborative environment sign up to host their own code. This contributes to the platform’s network effect.
4. These new projects become additional attractors that bring in new developers.

4. Drive acquisition with incentives

A way to incentivize current users to aid in acquiring new users is through referral programs. Build shareable moments, incentives, and visibility into the user journey. Each new user not only becomes a customer but also a potential referrer by making sharing a natural part of the user experience.

The best referral programs provide support and education to users, making sharing about the product as simple as possible.

A great example is Airtable, which credits $10 to your account automatically when you invite new users to the tool.

Here’s how it works:

1. Current users invite new users to Airtable or share your unique referral link.
2. When a new user signs up and verifies their email address, $10 is automatically credited to your account.
3. You can see the credits on your account page and apply them to your charges.
4. Users can accumulate the credits, so the incentive to invite new users continues.

5. Re-engage dormant users

Social community features and push/message notifications prompt dormant or inactive users to re-engage with your tool.

For example, Venmo builds social engagement into its payment tool and uses these features to drive engagement. Each transaction re-engages the network of contacts with ‘reminder’ functionality and social engagement features.

Here’s a breakdown of how Venmo re-engages users:

1. A user requests payment from a friend, roommate, or coworker. If they don’t pay promptly, the user can ‘remind’ their contact about the pending payment.
2. Once complete, Venmo posts this transaction to a public or semi-public feed. This visibility serves as social proof.
3. Friends see the transaction and can like or comment on the payment.

Tools can leverage multiple strategies

From shareable features to re-engagement tactics, each strategy leverages your users’ networks in unique ways. By combining them, you can unlock exponential growth.

Let’s use LinkedIn as an example again:

• Referrals: New LinkedIn users are encouraged to invite their friends to the tool. This creates a positive network effect by increasing acquisition immediately with each new user.
• Re-engagement: When users join LinkedIn, they’re encouraged to connect with their contacts. Each connection re-engages current users on the platform. Users post updates, share articles, and comment on others’ posts. This drives users back to the platform frequently, increases time spent, and encourages interactions that deepen the network’s value.
• Registrations: Companies post job listings on LinkedIn and widely share the URL. There is a ‘quick apply’ function for LinkedIn users, which incentivizes applicants to sign up for their own profile.

These are just a few examples of how a tool might incorporate multiple strategies leveraging their customer’s network.

Start growing with support from your user base

Ready to start leveraging your customers’ network to increase product relevance and reach? Start by defining your goal and key metrics. Do you want to improve referral rates? User activation? New registrants?

Monitor these metrics to identify bottlenecks and opportunities to improve. If a specific action isn’t driving the desired results, you may need to adjust the user engagement structure, incentives, or experience.

Other best practices for leveraging your customer’s network to increase product relevance and reach:

• Segment customers
• Leverage social proof
• Make it easy
• Celebrate success and loyalty

Ready to amplify your SaaS growth through positive network effects? Our Digital Experience Optimization Program can help you identify and implement strategies tailored to your user base.

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